Mark IV combo speaker (C90) - do you like it?

[Random Hero]

...is it b/c the 2x12 is closed back and the combo is open back???

Pretty much.

 

[yettoblaster]

The Celestion Black Shadow (C90) gets a lot of complaints from a lot of people about speaker "flap" or flubbiness in the bass frequencies.

Personally I prefer this speaker to all others, despite its tendency to flap a little in my Mark I RI.

I usually get around the flap by using very little bass in an open back combo. 1.5 is about my max to date.
I think the STR440 6L6's really wallop the cone too. Mine does it less with 6V6's, and I'm hoping, EL-34's.

Interestingly I have used the C90 for years in all kinds of amps and cabinets and never had the flap be noticeable until the Mark.

 

[ibanez4life SZ!]

Mesa gives you ample bass so you don't run out....each amp has a not usable zone....let's be honest....on a marshall, you wouldn't keep the bass low, and the amp would sound thin. On a marshall, the usable zone is usually very high. On a Mesa, the same usable range is simple lower.

What's the difference? :wink:

I do agree though...the open back combo does not help for tight bass....IMO, the Mark is a much better amp when paired with a closed back cab....IMO, V30s do MUCH better to! My traditional 4x12 sounds INSANE with my Mark.

PS...I haven't had the Mark long, but I feel it sounds much clearer with a higher presence on the lead channel.

 

[scottywompas]

I'm not the biggest fan of the C90 but I destroyed the cone of one of my EV/SRO's trying to get it into my MkIV. (long story short, I'm a dumbass)

I have to get it reconed and I will try again. Right now I stack the MKIV on a 1x12 with an EV and the combination sounds pretty good but I don't like to always take the extra 1x12.

I have managed to get the amp to sound pretty good with just the C90 but it takes some tweaking at stage volume. I usually get it dialed in by song two or three.

Scott

 

[yettoblaster]

What's the difference? :wink:

difference is with a stiletto or marshall, you can set all 3 eq controls to noon and that's fine.

with mark iv or recto, it sounds bad.

all 3 controls @ noon should be base. 1.5 shouldn't. it's very strange to me.

Yes, even Mesa says in their manuals for Marks that a little goes a long ways.
In the case of my Mark I RI, it comes the way THEY came: warts and all, circa 1972 or whenever.
EV's came later, and for logical reasons!

In the case of new MarkIV's I can't comment, except I do NOT KNOW: WHAT happened to EV's in Mesa/Boogies?

That an amp like a Mark I is capable of overdriving the specs of its included speaker doesn't makes sense nowadays, but in its day more was well, uh, more!
I used to love JBL D120/K120 speakers, but they're not available anymore either.

I think having an amp that can blow its own speaker is sorta like putting 38+ rounds in an old M&P Colt (not designed for "+" ammo).

But then having a car that can do 120mph is accepted. No matter that there isn't enough room to do it in THIS state! :wink:

I guess its just the way Mesa does it. They warranty the speaker for a while though. It can fart along for a while, it seems.

I accepted all the warts of Telecasters for decades before moving on. I dunno where to go if I ever have to "move on" from how Mesa does things.
I prefer to let new shoes break my FEET in. :lol:

 

[Bourque]

I have the combo with the C90 but I sit it on top of a standard 4x12. I used the combo in the studio and found it to be a lot smoother then the Vintage 30. For the style I was using it for it worked out great but if you were to really make things raunchy, the smoothness of the C90 in an open back kinda turns to mush. Especially if you dip out a lot of mids. I think it's great for bluesy stuff or spanky cleans but looses the tracking and tone when driven by a lot of gain. This is where I find the V30 shines, which is why I have the cab as well.

When you're mic'ing really close to the speaker, it doesn't make much difference what kind of cab any speaker is in though.

 

[dodger916]

Anyone here with experience running an EVM 12L in the combo vs the C90?

 

[yettoblaster]

I had an EV(L) in a MarkIIB.
Smoother for sure, and certainly no bass tones flapping.

BUT, I still like the overall attitude of the C-90. If I wanted generic guitar amp sounds I would not have a Boogie with a C-90 in it by choice, I would use the EV or a separate cab.

This morning at a low-powered brunch gig I was on 60w/tweed setting with my MarkI RI, and was able to turn the bass pot up to about 4.5! :shock:
Just a generic guitar amp sound: but a lot easier to carry than a combo with an EV in it! :wink:

To me, the C-90 adds its personality to the overall sound I'm looking for, even if at larger volumes I must watch the bass tones.

 

[dodger916]

I had an EV(L) in a MarkIIB.
Smoother for sure, and certainly no bass tones flapping.

BUT, I still like the overall attitude of the C-90. If I wanted generic guitar amp sounds I would not have a Boogie with a C-90 in it by choice, I would use the EV or a separate cab.

This morning at a low-powered brunch gig I was on 60w/tweed setting with my MarkI RI, and was able to turn the bass pot up to about 4.5! :shock:
Just a generic guitar amp sound: but a lot easier to carry than a combo with an EV in it! :wink:

To me, the C-90 adds its personality to the overall sound I'm looking for, even if at larger volumes I must watch the bass tones.

Thanks, Yettoblaster. So if I'm reading your post correctly, you're saying the EV is more generic sounding overall but with tighter bass (no flapping), while the personality you hear in the C90 is worth the potential bass flap. I know these things may be difficult to describe (like describing the taste of chocolate), but can you be more specific as to the nature of the C90's "attitude" difference you mention?

Thanks.

Frank

 

[Random Hero]

What's the difference? :wink:

difference is with a stiletto or marshall, you can set all 3 eq controls to noon and that's fine.

with mark iv or recto, it sounds bad.

all 3 controls @ noon should be base. 1.5 shouldn't. it's very strange to me.

I think a Recto sounds pretty good with the bass, mid and treble controls at noon, personally.

 

[ursinus]

Anyone here with experience running an EVM 12L in the combo vs the C90?

I replaced the C90 in my old combo cab with a EV12L and it was perfect. The only draw back was the weight. But, I switched to a head shell.

 

[JOEY B.]

It would be nice if MESA would partner with Eminence again and offer the Delta Pro 12A in the Mark combos and in the 1x12 extension cabs. They could buy in bulk and it would probably be no more expensive than the C90. Why they choose to roll the dice by using a 90 watt speaker is beyond me. :roll: If I wanted speaker breakup, I'd go with a greenback celestion.

 

[dodger916]

Anyone here with experience running an EVM 12L in the combo vs the C90?

I replaced the C90 in my old combo cab with a EV12L and it was perfect. The only draw back was the weight. But, I switched to a head shell.

Thanks ursinus. Any drawback to the EVM 12L at living room volumes vs the C90?

Frank

 

[ursinus]

Anyone here with experience running an EVM 12L in the combo vs the C90?

I replaced the C90 in my old combo cab with a EV12L and it was perfect. The only draw back was the weight. But, I switched to a head shell.

Thanks ursinus. Any drawback to the EVM 12L at living room volumes vs the C90?

Frank

Ironically, the EV sounds better at lower volumes than the c90 does, but of course, the EV does the loud volume the best IMO.

 

[yettoblaster]

...Yettoblaster. So if I'm reading your post correctly, you're saying the EV is more generic sounding overall but with tighter bass (no flapping), while the personality you hear in the C90 is worth the potential bass flap. I know these things may be difficult to describe (like describing the taste of chocolate), but can you be more specific as to the nature of the C90's "attitude" difference you mention?...

Well I'd have to say I've become accustomed to the "Celestion sound," except the lower rated versions break up too quickly for me, and then lose the snarky midrange punch of the C-90.
I prefer Altecs and JBL's to EV's I think because they have a sort of signature sound to my ears: a lush bottom end and an overall clarity and high fidelity smoothness with headroom to spare (the JBL's especially).

The EV's have headroom to spare too (obviously) but I never thought they were worth the extra expense over JBL's (when they were both still marketed).

Of course neither Altecs or JBL's of my preference are easy to get anymore, but I still have a bias against EV's it seems. I had an EVL in a MarkIIB and thought for a Boogie it was a boring sounding amp. Great Jazz sound, but who buys a Boogie for straight ahead Jazz?

To me a JBL goes very well with say, a Fender Twin, because the JBL has a bounce to it where the Fender is a sweet, bouyant sound.
I never cared for Utah, Eminence, or Jenson Special Designs in Fenders because the midrange is in a nasty "you-may-as-well-phone-in-your-part" spot to my ears. :shock:

Old AlNiCo Jensens and the new Italian ones in tweeds are fine though.

All that to say this: to me the EV's, while trying to be transparent and everything to all players, don't perk my ears up anymore than an Eminence (but with headroom to spare).

To me a JBL K120 has the most presence and efficiency, while the Celestion is second most efficient and cutting, and has that raspy (Boogie-ish) upper midrange breakup and upper-midrange presence peak sort of like a Shure SM-58. It adds clarity and character to humbuckers (anything is OK with me using single coils, but humbuckers need help, IMHO).
That said: a Tele through a BF Bassman head with a C-90 in a small cabinet is a great sound just for what the speaker does. 8)

In addition, the indistinct bass tones and potential flap are more associated with the small Mark cabinet, in my experience. I've never heard it anywhere else with a C-90. But of course my Mark I RI will flap it almost at will (especially when running 6L6's).
However, I'm not expecting a focused bass sound from a small cabinet Mark combo.
But I DO like where a Mark with a C-90 sits in a band's texture: it gives me penetration even with humbuckers, and stays out of the way of everybody else if I listen to what they're doing and adjust where I am on the neck for contrast frequency ranges.

My two cents. YMMV. Don't try this at home. Yettoblaster Inc assumes no responsibilities for misuse of the phrase "penetration," etc etc ... :?

 

[dodger916]

Thanks!

Frank

 

[phyrexia]

I like a 12L more than a C90 in the combo. I had a C90 in the combo, then bought an EV for it, then got my Thiele and swapped them again, and now I finally have two EVs, one in the combo and one in the thiele.

The C90 can certainly be a tight speaker. Don't pay attention to what the number on the bass knob says. If you use a tele you need to run bass at 4 or 5, if you use a fat humbucker guitar obviously you don't need that much bass.

EV's still the way to go IMO though.

 

[JOEY B.]

I like a 12L more than a C90 in the combo. I had a C90 in the combo, then bought an EV for it, then got my Thiele and swapped them again, and now I finally have two EVs, one in the combo and one in the thiele.

You left out the part about the C+ Coliseum/EV thiele accident. I really hate that the speaker took a hit on the night of your gig. Did the warranty cover the speaker problem? Sorry for the hijack .

 

[JAZZGEAR]

so what are you supposed to do if you want to play with the combo only and loud?

turn down the bass more? replace the speaker?

anybody use the combo 1x12 only?

Yeah....I don't like the C90 in the narrow combo....at higher volumes -- it seem to fart out sometimes.

Only reason I haven't replaced it yet is because the one I have right now is a place holder until my actual unit comes in from Mesa (sometime this month)....but I have the Mesa EVM speaker I have kept from a Mark IV combo I owned about 10 years ago. Now that speaker stays focused at any volume...and it doesn't care that it's in an open back.

 

[JAZZGEAR]

What's the difference? :wink:

difference is with a stiletto or marshall, you can set all 3 eq controls to noon and that's fine.

with mark iv or recto, it sounds bad.

all 3 controls @ noon should be base. 1.5 shouldn't. it's very strange to me.

Yes, even Mesa says in their manuals for Marks that a little goes a long ways.
In the case of my Mark I RI, it comes the way THEY came: warts and all, circa 1972 or whenever.
EV's came later, and for logical reasons!

In the case of new MarkIV's I can't comment, except I do NOT KNOW: WHAT happened to EV's in Mesa/Boogies?

That an amp like a Mark I is capable of overdriving the specs of its included speaker doesn't makes sense nowadays, but in its day more was well, uh, more!
I used to love JBL D120/K120 speakers, but they're not available anymore either.

I think having an amp that can blow its own speaker is sorta like putting 38+ rounds in an old M&P Colt (not designed for "+" ammo).

But then having a car that can do 120mph is accepted. No matter that there isn't enough room to do it in THIS state! :wink:

I guess its just the way Mesa does it. They warranty the speaker for a while though. It can fart along for a while, it seems.

I accepted all the warts of Telecasters for decades before moving on. I dunno where to go if I ever have to "move on" from how Mesa does things.
I prefer to let new shoes break my FEET in. :lol:

Mesa didn't voluntarily stop putting the EV in the Mark IV. They did so because EV stopped producing them altogether.

However, they are now reissuing them....so Mesa needs to get back onboard.