Mark III: The white whale

[boatright]

Chronic gear addict with an obsession for the guitar sound on Black Sabbath "Hole in The Sky" and first time poster so bear with me...

After owning and playing what seems like an endless amount of heads over the years i picked up a white Mesa Mark III green stripe about 6 months ago, hoping to come close to getting a live sound similar to the studio 22+ that was my first Mesa (unfortunately purged). I play in two different bands... In one i use an Ampeg V4 fullstack, driven with a Rat. This band tunes to C sharp and plays high gain stuff and it's the perfect setup. I will never part with my V4s.. They're perfect for me. Simple, loud, tight bass response. I love 'em. But they're too much for my other band and don't mesh well with the Mark V on the other side, played by our other guitar player. I got the Mark to be my jack of all trades amp, and now i'm finding the best sound is with a TS9 through the rhythm channel. Mids on 6, bass on 2, treble at 4, presence on 5. These things are no joke dialing in. Every practice is a challenge and i'm always fiddling with it. I love the simul-class. The new set of EL34s in the outer sockets give it an awesome growl. Especially after a full re-cap. It sounds mean. It sounds pissed, and i like it-somewhat.

But here's my problem. I can't get enough "dimension" out of it. It still sounds thin to me. It's nowhere close to the sound i'd expect from a mark series mesa. It just sounds boring. I feel like i need more harmonic content... more growl, especially on the low end of things... more beef. And i just don't know if i can get it with this amp. I hate to say it, but i owned a Rivera Knucklehead K100 for the same reason, and parted with it for the same reason... It should be noted that I've never had an ear for Marshalls and that amp sounded too much like a hot-rodded Marshall, but the Mark is going that way too...

So i'm at a point where i need advice... I know i'm crazy so don't bother telling me that. Am i going deaf? I'm just starting to think that this is not the right amp for what i want and that maybe i should try a Mark IV (maybe this is karma for passing on the $450 one in a Nashville pawn shop 10 years ago?) or a DC-10. Or maybe i'll just get a black Mark III :wink: And no i'm not a high gain junkie who worships rectifiers. I just need growl and depth.

Come on guys chime in... Let's hear your experience and suggestions. I'm practicing tonight and maybe i'll finally dial it in.

Thanks guys, looking forward to posting here and being a member of the site here for a long time.

 

[boogiemon]

turn the treble up to 7.5 & make sure it's pulled out, then turn down the presence to ~1.
Also put some tung-sol 12ax7's in the preamp (start w/v1)
keep the bass down to ~1 & pull the master vol out. (deep)

that should do it.

good luck.

 

[chipaudette]

Yeah, be sure to try the "Pull Deep" on your amp. That'll give it some mid beef and deep bottom.

Also, TS9 is not usually the first pedal that I think of if I'm going for a "beefy" tone. They cut away a lot of bass prior to the distortion. That's a very good approach, don't get me wrong...the problem is that the TS9 never adds it back in at the end. So, you might consider try other distortion pedals or some sort of post-distortion EQ (either another pedal with EQ after the distortion or an EQ pedal by itself).

Speaking of post-distortion EQ, your Mark III probably has a graphic EQ built in. You know, it doesn't have to be used just for the lead channel. Nope. It can be set simply to "on", which engages it for all channels, including R1 and R2.

You can get some really cool tones when playing clean (or semi-clean) with the GEQ engaged. And, when you use the TS9, the GEQ should add some serious meat to your sound.

Chip

 

[droptrd]

+1 to everyones comments. again, pull all the knobs (excepts the ch switching knobs). Mabe a bigger sounding OD like a Barber Direct drive or Paul C Timmy.

 

[boatright]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm going to try the tung sol route as I really think what I'm hearing (or not hearing) might be alleviated with some preamp tube swapping. I've got the deep pulled already and I'm using the graphic eq. Without either it sounds really thin. EQ wise I feel like I'm there. Yeah I've been using TS9s with various amps and they do cut low end a little but my biggest problem isn't an eq thing... It's where the harmonic content seems to be- the sweet spot in the tonal spectrum on it seems narrow and the low end and low mids-while there- seem to be lacking a fluidity and sound one dimensional.

Gonna try tung sol and report back.

Thanks again. I really love this amp. Tonally I don't think I've ever met such a challenge...

 

[chipaudette]

What type of speaker are you using. EVM? Celestion? Which model? The speaker type has a huge impact on the sound of the upper harmonics.

Also, what type of enclosure is it in? Closed or open?

Thanks,

Chip

 

[boatright]

I have 4 different cabinets that I've played it through. Older Mesa halfback with vintage 30s and black shadows, Marshall 1960b with celestions 80 watters (my favorite of the bunch), 1960A with celestion 75s and a newer Mesa loaded with v30s. Of the four it sounds best through the newer Mesa, and they all bring out different qualities. The 1960b sounds really good with it too. But the resonance is still there and the notes still sound 2D. I'm convinced the sound is there waiting and that it's gonna come alive with dome different 12AX7s. Without a lot of experience with these amps I can only assume that due to the preamp structure they are really sensitive to what kind of preamp tubes are used.

 

[phyrexia]

I think it's your tubes, judging by your complaints.

 

[boatright]

Just picked up a set of the new tung sol 12ax7s. Gonna put em in tonight and report back.

 

[sevycat]

I own a mark III green stripe, and I tryed the tung-sol 12AX7's in the amp. I switched back to the mesa 12AX7's. Nothing wrong with the tung-sol tubes, I just was not used to them and wanted to stay old school.

 

[boatright]

I just got done with some time on the mark at practice. I removed the Mesa 12ax7s, which honestly could've been original, and put the Tung Sols in.

It made a world of difference. Honestly the amp has woken up. I no longer feel like all the harmonic content is limited to a small band of midrange, but it's now present throughout all frequencies. My complaints are gone. This thing sounds amazing. The syrup that I feel it should have is there. I've ditched the TS9 and am able to use the lead now.

I'm incredibly pleased. Thanks for all the input!

 

[phyrexia]

What's the closest you've gotten to the Hole in the Sky tone? That was one of the first rock albums I owned. I can't ever forget it.

 

[boatright]

I've been trying for that sound for years! The mark III can come close when it's wound out, especially on 60 watt mode. The studio 22+ was probably the closest I think I've gotten... It's the EL84s. For a while I was convinced that he used an AC30 to record that record. I'm still not sure if it's actually his Laney supergroup on that record. Honestly a lot of that sound is in Iommi's fingers it's the bends on the first change that sound soooo good. It's hands down my favorite recorded guitar sound ever...