Mark III Preamp Tube V1

[TonyBar3]

I know you guys hate getting the same tube questions over and over again, but I'm new and I like the help.

I've heard that replacing the V1 tube can signifantly affect the overall tone of an amp.

I've currently got a Sovtek 12AX7 in the V1 position in my Mark III (green stripe). I was hoping some of you could make some suggestions for other 12AX7 replacements that have different sounds and what those sounds may be similar to. I am not interested in adjusting the bias at all, so the tubes will have to meet Mesa specs/be Mesa safe.

Thanks
Tony

 

[RussB]

Yes Tony, it does make a big difference...

As far as suggestions, there are about as many as there are different tubes!

I have a MKIII Purple, and TO ME, a Telefunken smooth-plate in V1 is the best tube I've tried in there. It helps tame a bit of the "muddiness" that my amp had. Kudo's go out to the RCA 7025 as well.

I did not like the Mullard's or Brimar's in V1. Too "thick" for my ears.

I also use an RCA 12AY7 in V3 (the lead channel) This is a lower-gain tube, but operates at very similar parameters as a 12AX7. It lowers the overall gain in the lead channel, but I still have PLENTY for my needs.

Another interesting option is to use a 12AT7 as a phase inverter (V5)

There is no need to adjust bias when swapping pre-amp tubes. All pre-amp tubes are self-biasing (cathode biased)

 

[RussB]

I know you guys hate getting the same tube questions over and over again, but I'm new and I like the help.

What the hell, we need to talk about SOMETHING

 

[vcamargo99]

I recently purchased some ElectroHarmonics 12AX7-EH, Sovtek 12AX7-LPS and Ei 12AX7 Elite Gold's (patterned after the Telefunken smooth plate) to try out on several amps I own. In my Mark III Blue Stripe, the EH's had Really good gain, and is good when a crunchy brighter sound is needed. The LPS was great. Fuller (fatter) than the EH and tighter. The Ei was the smoothest, and quietest with a "hair" less gain. I tried all of them with the exact volume and tone settings. The Ei was the winner for me. All of them were *excellent* tonewise, but I liked how the the Ei's felt like when playing, especially with the more Marshallesqe rhythm channel. I'll be trying out power tubes soon (EL34/6L6).

 

[TonyBar3]

Okay, here's a question. I know that it is a mortal sin to compare the Marks to the Rectos, but which do you think give the most recto'ist tone? I know that they are very different, but it's just a question. Most like a Mark IV?

Thanks folks.

 

[RussB]

I'm not sure I "get" your question...

...but tube swaps make SUBTLE changes...a little brighter here, a bit darker there. That said, if you want "recto" tone, get a recto.

If your MKIII is simul-class, try 6L6 and EL34's in the "Class A" sockets. That will have a big change in tone

MKIV's are versatile, are you asking what tubes in a MKIII would make it sound like a MKIV? a "Recto"? Which Recto?

I'll let someone more articulate takle this one :wink:

 

[Boogiebabies]

The Mk series amps have zero in common with the Rectifiers. The curcuits are not even remotely close. The Mk series amps are a Fender Circuit with a
hell of a lot of gain added and then they add the lead circuit and the rest is history. The Dual Rectifier is a blatant copy of the Soldano SLO 100 in many respects but uses its own voicing regarding damping and negative feedback. The Soldano has quadruple the filtering that the Dual Rec. Has. There are subtle changes to differentiate them, but a Soldano circuit is what it is. The comparison between the amps can be made due to the MK IV's graphic EQ. It can nearly emulate the voicing of the Dual Rec,MK II, III and almost any old boosted Fender. SO a MK IV with the presence knob pushed in and the pull fat and Lead bright pulled with a high 80hz setting may seem like a rectifier sound, but it will have more attack and definition than a Dual Rec.
The DR if not dialed in properly will seem like a muddy mess in comparison, but they can be sweet and brutal all in there own special way. I also think that a DR has to be used with multiple cabinets and be allowed to open up the power section and divide some of the huge bottom end through a couple of speaker cabs. I prefer front loaded cabs for these amps, but a Mesa 4FB with the front load V-30's is a bit sweeter on the top end as it absorbs some of the bass and blends it differently.

 

[TonyBar3]

So a basic no. That's cool. I was just curious.

Have any of you all found the direct out to be of any REAL use at all? Mine sounds kind of thin when I record it. Of course, when I record with a mic it sounds kind of thin, but I think that's just my inexperience.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

Tony -

Back to your original question, I'll offer a few options:

RFT ECC83 - early breakup, low frequencies become mushier and highs are not as sharp, but these qualities, plus the compression, really help with lead tones. Doesn't clean up well.

Tungsram ECC83 - quite the opposite of RFT, late-breakup, solid lows, balanced throughout the frequency spectrum, but a slight bit fatter than RussB's recommended Telefunken smooth-plate ECC83, while retaining all the articulation.

JAN-Philips ECG 12AX7WA - Solid and emphasized lows, somewhat "blurry" mids and bright treble that lends itself to a fine choice for punchy and crunchy power chords.

Mullard CV4024/12AT7WA - Full lows and rich low-mids, sweetly balanced, unobtrusive, open/airy highs. Lower gain than 12AX7 (60%) yields cleaner cleans.

Raytheon black-plate/halo-getter 12AX7A - Incredibly detailed and articulate when clean, but breaks up early (second to the RFT in terms of early breakup) into rich harmonic overtones that give it a slightly rough texture. Can be bright in some circuits. Exceptionally dynamic. This would be my personal #1 choice if I wanted to amend the dark and muddies (it is also the source photo for my avatar).

RCA 12AX7A - This is the short-gray-plate version (same as the 7025) - very well-defined and slightly emphasized lows, somewhat scooped mids, bright highs that can become indistinct (not as clear as Tungsram, Telefunken, Raytheon).

Mullard long-plate/halo-getter 12AX7/ECC83 - Tight lows, distinct low-mids, beautifully airy/open upper mids, with nice singing fizz when driven hard. Trebles remain distinct without any harshness. Overall, very smooth and compressed (in comparison with the Raytheon, especially).

RCA triple-mica/black-plate 5751 - Slight gain drop (70% of 12AX7). Very well-balanced across the frequency spectrum; much more-so than the more common JAN-GE gray plate 5751 (and very much more lively/responsive/dynamic than the JAN-GE too). Like the Mullard CV4024, can give a slightly cleaner response, but does it with less low and low-mid emphasis.

There are others about which I could describe my impressions, but this set gives you a good idea of possibilities of the palette.

Cheers!

- T

 

[TonyBar3]

Alright, I play an ESP Eclipse through my Mark III and find the highs to be a bit harsh with my bridge pickup (SeyDun JB), but don't want to take the treble down b/c then it gets rid of some of the definition of the neck pickup (SeyDun '59). I'm probably going to swap that JB out b/c I've heard a lot about it as far as it being a 'thin' pick-up.

How does this relate to tubes? I really like a focused, heavy bottom end. Not muddy at all. And I like somewhat high gain, but when I palm mute, I like the bass notes to sound almost clean/pushed, not heavily distorted.

This should make the tube hunt easier.

Has anyone tried JJs in a Mark III yet? The guy from Eurotube was telling me to get 3 EC883S High Gains for V1-V3, a normal for V4, and a balanced normal for V5.

Any/All comments welcome.

Sorry I jumbled my guitar and amp stuff, but hey, this is about my tone, no need to start 5 threads.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

How does this relate to tubes? I really like a focused, heavy bottom end. Not muddy at all. And I like somewhat high gain, but when I palm mute, I like the bass notes to sound almost clean/pushed, not heavily distorted.

I'd recommend the RCA short-gray-plate 12AX7A for this. Possibly even a JAN-GE 12AX7WA (7025) - my hesitation would be that with single-coils, I've found this tube to be somewhat stiff in its responsiveness, but you may find it to behave differently with humbuckers.

Sorry I jumbled my guitar and amp stuff, but hey, this is about my tone, no need to start 5 threads.

yeah, its all part of the mix, so amen to putting it all in one place. I look at the whole signal chain, from fingers, strings, pickups and pick, through to the speakers, as a unified instrument (but a very complicated one).

- T

 

[RussB]

Has anyone tried JJs in a Mark III yet? The guy from Eurotube was telling me to get 3 EC883S High Gains for V1-V3, a normal for V4, and a balanced normal for V5.

Any/All comments welcome.

Bob's a great guy, no doubt about it, BUT he only sells JJ's, You need to consider that!

Tubes make subtle differences, keep that in mind as well.

 

[Joey707]

In response to your question about the direct out. The direct out is a tap off the speaker jacks. It is not frequency compensated. It sounds pretty thin and buzzy to me. I have gotten good results running a line out of the direct out and into a Cabtone(Digital Music Corp.) then to a recorder. You can also put the Cabtone between the amp and the speaker. It then provides a line level frequency compensated output. So if you have a Cabtone you don't really need to use the direct out on the amp.

 

[Boogiebabies]

Lets be honest with each other. You will spend the rest of your life buying tubes to find the tone you are after. One day you may hit the jackpot and then two days later the mojo is gone and the curse of the black plate continues. When I look at my storage closet I almost cry from the collection of tubes. I could of had a 69 Camaro SS 302 4 Speed for the money.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

????!!!??

Honestly, that hasn't been my experience at all! Though I've got many tubes I'm not currently using, I continue to be satisfied with where I've arrived with them - that's why I'm so enthusiastic about the topic. And I don't find the differences to be subtle, either.

Hopefully, those of us who've experimented can share enough information to others so they can buy the bitchin' Camaro and have inspiring tone too. Sorry to hear you've been disappointed.

 

[dis1here]

for what its worth,i tried jj's from the tubestore.com and loved em. Versus the sovtek and eh tubes i tried the jj's were not as harsh and alot fatter sounding,now i can run my presence around 8 instead of 3 or 4,hope this helps!!