Mark IIC+ ... i holy grail.. then why

[cisspcism]

did they make the Mark III? I am assuming Mesa thought the Mark III was an improvement but once they realized that the Mark IIC+ was still considered better how come they didn't change the Mark III's voicing? I mean you would just assume that if the MarkIIC+ lead channel was the best than that same channel would be on the mark III , Mark IV, and I guess its been reissued kinda/sorta in the mark V

Just curious for reasonings but you would think and amp would get better and not worse. The Mark III was supposed to be better than the Mark IIC+ and it wasnt and isnt as desired.

I may be way off here so I apologize if I stir up bad feelings.

Just curious why they would change when what they had was considered the tone of gods

 

[lyman]

Mesa, as a company, got its start modifying and building upon existing amp designs. They've kept that as a core value, which led them to tweaking the Mark with each release. Seems like it's only been in the past few years that the IIC+ has been declared THE Mark to have. Maybe the internet has helped that along...

 

[screamingdaisy]

Mesa, as a company, got its start modifying and building upon existing amp designs. They've kept that as a core value, which led them to tweaking the Mark with each release. Seems like it's only been in the past few years that the IIC+ has been declared THE Mark to have. Maybe the internet has helped that along...

+1.

Randall Smith doesn't seem to like to sit still, so he's always 'improving' his designs. Going back to the Mark IIC+ would've been counter to this approach, so he kept pushing forward with the design.

I also agree with the internet bit. There's a lot of hype that's been generated around certain amps and revisions that didn't exist 7 or 8 years ago. Back then, most Mark IV owners probably didn't know their amp didn't sound as good as a Mk IIC+ because the internet wasn't telling them so. I remember when people still debated the Mk IIC+ vs. Mk IV lead channels, back before the IIC+ superiority became an internet fact.

 

[JOEY B.]

For me, the C+ mystique is more about "feel" or "response" than the actual tone. I tried both MkIV's as well as a purple, blue and green stripe MkIII to try and get this response. No luck with this quest, for me anyways. Feel the hype, if you get the chance. 8)

 

[MrMarkIII]

RCS, like everyone else, probably wouldn't want to even think about his best days being behind him. Onward and upward!
If memory serves, the grail-ness of the IIC+ didn't start 'til after the Mark III had been out a while.
Anywho, it seems to me the Mark III is the most factory-tweaked of all the Boogies. Maybe all those dot, black, purple, red, blue, and green stripes were an attempt to get closer to the C+, without admitting they were just going "back to the future".
It's interesting that in most of the Mesa literature, like catalogs and such, the Mark III is often overlooked. Look up the "Out Of Production" page on their website, and it mentions only the Mk I and the Mk IV.
Here's my question: One of the big complaints about the Mk III was, is, that the EQ is shared by R1 and Lead. Ain't it the same on a IIC+?

 

[screamingdaisy]

Anywho, it seems to me the Mark III is the most factory-tweaked of all the Boogies. Maybe all those dot, black, purple, red, blue, and green stripes were an attempt to get closer to the C+, without admitting they were just going "back to the future".

The couple of factory tweaks/stripes involved trying to sort out R2 and getting it to balance right with R1. After that there was some lead channel shaping followed by a step towards what was essentially a Mark IV with less knobs if I understand correctly.

It's interesting that in most of the Mesa literature, like catalogs and such, the Mark III is often overlooked. Look up the "Out Of Production" page on their website, and it mentions only the Mk I and the Mk IV.
Here's my question: One of the big complaints about the Mk III was, is, that the EQ is shared by R1 and Lead. Ain't it the same on a IIC+?

I think it's a bigger complaint that R1 and R2 share EQ.... it's why most people give up on R2 and treat it like a two channel amp (I know I did). Further, I think most people will overlook the shared EQ just to gain access to the IIC+ lead channel.

I think the Mk III is generally skipped over because it wasn't really known for anything. I mean, it was an evolutionary model between the II and IV, but it never became famous for anything and is overshadowed by both the IIC+ and IV.

Also, based on reading various Mesa literature, I think Randy Smith considers the Mk IV to have a better rhythm tone than the Mk IIC+, and the Mk IIC+ to have a better lead tone than the Mk IV. This seems to be a constant battle for him... the compromise between rhythm and lead. You can see the same evolution over the course of the 2ch Rectifiers. I never totally understood this until I bought a Lonestar. The lead channel is IMO outstanding, however compared to other Mesa's I've had in the past it's rhythm tone isn't as 'impressive' as I'm used to. This kind of leads me to believe there may be some truth to this lead vs rhythm thing.

 

[Platypus]

Another thing, the Mark III introduced the use of PCB boards which allowed them to make more amps quicker and expand their enterprise.

 

[igfraso]

Just curious why they would change when what they had was considered the tone of gods

As I wrote some time ago in this board, I recall that 1984 and 1985 was the time of the super-dollar so imports were really cheap... even from Western Europe.

R. Smith probably had to reduce the manufacturing cost of the amps in order to keep Boogie's manufacturing in the US and still being competitive with imports.

Then, in 1986, the dollar devaluated 30% against the European currencies in a very short period of time.
Regards

 

[Wally]

Another thing, the Mark III introduced the use of PCB boards which allowed them to make more amps quicker and expand their enterprise.

MKII's are on PCB's....therefore all MKIIC are on PCB's. I haven't had the opportunity to open up a MKI to know whether or not they are PCB amps, but I am going to guess that they are. Teh latest Boogie I have opened up was a 1979 MKII. IT has the same type of thick board with big traces PCB that my MKIIC+ had.

Trick question....how many channels in a MKII Boogie? Hint...it isn't two.

 

[Platypus]

Another thing, the Mark III introduced the use of PCB boards which allowed them to make more amps quicker and expand their enterprise.

MKII's are on PCB's....therefore all MKIIC are on PCB's. I haven't had the opportunity to open up a MKI to know whether or not they are PCB amps, but I am going to guess that they are. Teh latest Boogie I have opened up was a 1979 MKII. IT has the same type of thick board with big traces PCB that my MKIIC+ had.

Trick question....how many channels in a MKII Boogie? Hint...it isn't two.

Maybe I used the wrong word here then. The boards are different:

This:

versus

This:

 

[Wally]

Those are pictures of two well-done PCB amp circuits.

 

[Tuna141]

Besides the functionality of the circuitry, the only difference between the two PCBs is that the newer one has a solder mask and the older one doesn't.

A solder mask protects the circuit traces from oxidation and provides some insulation. It also helps prevent solder bridges between circuits/traces. It is used to help facilitate "wave soldering", which is essentially a solder bath process which is used when manufacturing producing completed circuitboards in higher volume. The solder won't stick to the solder mask, so it prevents solder from bridging circuit traces and shorting them out.

The PCB without the solder mask (green tint) was most likely hand soldered and the one with the mask was run through an automated wave solder process.

Both types of PCB are fine, but the one with the solder mask will offer a little more short protection.

 

[Wally]

Besides the functionality of the circuitry, the only difference between the two PCBs is that the newer one has a solder mask and the older one doesn't.

A solder mask protects the circuit traces from oxidation and provides some insulation. It also helps prevent solder bridges between circuits/traces. It is used to help facilitate "wave soldering", which is essentially a solder bath process which is used when manufacturing producing completed circuitboards in higher volume. The solder won't stick to the solder mask, so it prevents solder from bridging circuit traces and shorting them out.

The PCB without the solder mask (green tint) was most likely hand soldered and the one with the mask was run through an automated wave solder process.

Both types of PCB are fine, but the one with the solder mask will offer a little more short protection.

Tuna, just making sure here. You are saying that the green PCB is the older one? I would have thought just the opposite. The lower pic shows a board that is similar to the one in the '79 MKII that I mentioned. I would have thought that this board would have been hand-soldered. IT was ordered when Randall's wife was taking orders. The original owner was led to believe that it was built ..in his words...."in Randall's garage". I am not up on the Boogie timeline, but this amp was built when orders were taken by phone. I would not have thought that it was wave soldered. Just curious....

 

[Platypus]

Besides the functionality of the circuitry, the only difference between the two PCBs is that the newer one has a solder mask and the older one doesn't.

A solder mask protects the circuit traces from oxidation and provides some insulation. It also helps prevent solder bridges between circuits/traces. It is used to help facilitate "wave soldering", which is essentially a solder bath process which is used when manufacturing producing completed circuitboards in higher volume. The solder won't stick to the solder mask, so it prevents solder from bridging circuit traces and shorting them out.

The PCB without the solder mask (green tint) was most likely hand soldered and the one with the mask was run through an automated wave solder process.

Both types of PCB are fine, but the one with the solder mask will offer a little more short protection.

Tuna, just making sure here. You are saying that the green PCB is the older one? I would have thought just the opposite. The lower pic shows a board that is similar to the one in the '79 MKII that I mentioned. I would have thought that this board would have been hand-soldered. IT was ordered when Randall's wife was taking orders. The original owner was led to believe that it was built ..in his words...."in Randall's garage". I am not up on the Boogie timeline, but this amp was built when orders were taken by phone. I would not have thought that it was wave soldered. Just curious....

Exactly my question too, thanks for the info on the boards though!

 

[Tuna141]

I may have confused you a little with this statement:

The PCB without the solder mask (green tint) was most likely hand soldered and the one with the mask was run through an automated wave solder process.

After re-reading this, I can see how it could be confusing. What I tried to convey was that the solder mask has the green tint/coating.

I'll clarify:
The PCB with the solder mask has the green coating. It is most likely the newer PCB of the two. As demand for the amps increased, Mesa had to move to a more efficient and automated process. Wave soldering components is much quicker than hand soldering components.

The PCB without the solder mask (i.e. no green coating) was hand soldered. The PCB with the green coating was run through a wave solder machine. After wave solder, the components and wires which can not be wave soldered (i.e. wires, some larger caps/components, etc) were then hand soldered. So, in actuality, the PCB with the solder mask (green) has a mix of both, wave soldering and hand soldering. The PCB without the solder mask has most likely been completely hand soldered.

The solder joints produced by a skilled hand-solderer will be of high quality and will most likely last the lifetime of the product (and then some). However, the quality of properly performed wave soldering is just as good, if not better, than hand soldering due to the consistency of the solder joints.

Sorry for the confusion. Hope this info helps...

 

[Octavarius]

The solder joints produced by a skilled hand-solderer will be of high quality and will most likely last the lifetime of the product (and then some). However, the quality of properly performed wave soldering is just as good, if not better, than hand soldering due to the consistency of the solder joints.

That (and that it became a more time efficient production process) was what Playpus wanted to point out in the first place.

 

[Wally]

Thanks for the clarification, Tuna. I knew it had to be that way.
WAve soldering.....if there is a problem in the process, wave soldering can lead to problems. I know of a situation where a well-known and well-respected tech had been puzzling over a problem with a FEnder CS VibroKing, which I am lead to believe is wave-soldered tagboard construction. The problems were resolved only after he stripped the components off of the tagboard and resoldered everything by hand. Voila....the amp bloomed into what it should have been. Interesting to me because I have run into one of those VK's that didn't sound worth the electricity it took to run it....tubes, bias....no simple thing changed the amp's sonics.I learned of the wave soldering and the 'cure' for this amp when I was researching the lack of interest in the amp as the owner put it up on ebay. I hear of people who love the VK, so I know this isn't a general problem, but I do believe that the process of wave soldering can introduce repetitive errors if something is amiss in the process.

 

[Platypus]

The solder joints produced by a skilled hand-solderer will be of high quality and will most likely last the lifetime of the product (and then some). However, the quality of properly performed wave soldering is just as good, if not better, than hand soldering due to the consistency of the solder joints.

That (and that it became a more time efficient production process) was what Playpus wanted to point out in the first place.

Yep