Is the Express effects loop line level or instrument level?

[richpjr]

And is it any good? I've read a few comments complaining that it isn't the best loop in the world.

 

[EtherealWidow]

Pretty sure all fx loops are line level. Don't they get converted to line level at the preamp?

 

[UKBoogieboy]

All are line level as ALL effects are line level, BUT there is more than one type, pro line level is different to domestic line level, some rack effects have got 2 line levels to choose from. Rack effects are recommeded for send and returns not pedals, although some like the Hardwire series are suitable.

 

[UKBoogieboy]

Well I wouldn't use it, its series, so it sends ALL of the amps sound out through the effects and back. The F50 has got Parallel which keeps the sound in the amp and you "ADD" the effect TO the amp sound, MUCH better.
I think Series is good for one thing, using a compressor because of course you need the whole signal to go out and back. The best place for a compressor is in the loop, but make sure the volume pedal is BEFORE the compress or it will mess up violining. Putting a compressor in the loop means you still get the different levels of crunch and distortion from hard and soft playing but the volume will be levelled without affecting the overdrive intensity.
If you use Delay and Reverb they should go in the loop UNLESS you use overdrive pedals, you never want to send delay and reverb through overdrive, so if you use the amp overdrive use the loop, if you use pedals for overdrive then put the delay and reverb in the front end after the overdrives.
Professionals don't really use the delay and reverb into the amp at all!!!! because the amp is miked, the digital effects are added send and return on the desk in stereo, and comes out of the P.A. and the stage monitors on the guitar sound.

 

[richpjr]

It's kind of funny to hear your opinion on this UKBoobieBoy. The 5:50 that I just picked up is the first amp I've ever had that had an effects loops so I really haven't paid much attention to them in the past, but I do recall hearing a lot of people who will only use a serial loop and wouldn't touch a parallel loop. Different strokes I guess.

 

[MrMason]

The Express' effects loops is great, buffered really well. Series vs parallel is a matter of taste. Most people who have amps with parallel loops tend to have them mod'ed to series from what I've heard.

 

[Don]

I run a Hughes & Kettner Rotosphere through mine. It sounds incredible.

 

[UKBoogieboy]

Depends what you want, the general thing I notice is cheaper amps have got series, more expensive have got parallel.

The trouble with series is you have to send all the sound out and back, I always think the sound is better staying in the amp without going through effects circuits and their buffers and back.
If you are using a compressor you can use a parallel effects loop set to series with the knob where it sends 100 per cent signal.
You are of course right about people having parallel modded to series, BUT people also buy dedicated boxes made by John Suhr which convert series to parallel. "MiniMix"
It really does depend what you want but I would prefer the main amp sound to stay inside the amp nice and safe.

Famous guitars often do this, A compressor like a Boss would run into the front of the amp for an old really compressed sound, some efects would be in the effects loop, but some would be added on the desk in stereo.
The main high quality transparent compression will be added on the desk, only "effect" pedal compression will be into the amp.
You don't want to mic an amp with delay and reverb on it because the sound it stuck like it all mushed together, add delay and reverb on the desk after you eq and compress the mic'd up amp, that gives you ALOT more control and a much better sound with stereo effects and FULL FREQUENCY reverb out of the P.A. more lush.


I don't have the option to mic the amp, or have studio effects running into a desk, so I have to work out how to do it all with the amp.

 

[UKBoogieboy]

Hi Rich, this is the box that people use to change the series to parallel.

http://www.suhrguitars.com/tonetools.aspx

 

[Newysurfer]

And is it any good? I've read a few comments complaining that it isn't the best loop in the world.

there's so much crap floating around these days.
The 5:50's loop is the best I've ever had out of about 50 different tube amps I've played and owned over the years.
It's a Series Loop, it's dead quiet and it works flawlessly. There's been no reliability issues I'm aware of. What's not to like.

If you wanna use time based effects and you want them after the premap like most people do then a Series loop is by far the best option. Using a parrellel loop can work ok on some amps provided they have mix dial that goes to 100%. Otherwise you end up with a phase type effects on delays n flangers that is not pleasent. F-50's, Rectoverbs, Stiletto's and many Marshalls have parrallel loops and there's lotsa owners who've had to get them converted to Series loops

 

[J.J]

And is it any good? I've read a few comments complaining that it isn't the best loop in the world.

there's so much crap floating around these days.
The 5:50's loop is the best I've ever had out of about 50 different tube amps I've played and owned over the years.
It's a Series Loop, it's dead quiet and it works flawlessly. There's been no reliability issues I'm aware of. What's not to like.

If you wanna use time based effects and you want them after the premap like most people do then a Series loop is by far the best option. Using a parrellel loop can work ok on some amps provided they have mix dial that goes to 100%. Otherwise you end up with a phase type effects on delays n flangers that is not pleasent. F-50's, Rectoverbs, Stiletto's and many Marshalls have parrallel loops and there's lotsa owners who've had to get them converted to Series loops

Well said. Couldn't agree more.

 

[nomad100hd]

not to mention unit that has latency will also cause a phase problem in a parallel loop.

 

[UKBoogieboy]

But the Mesa Boogie effects loops send level are controlled by the master volumes which is MADNESS! You turn the volume up, the send into the effects go up, this makes calibrating effects impossible, and if you forget to REadjust the effects unit input EVERYTIME you change the volume of the amp you risk blowing the amp to pieces like I did.

I turned the amp up for a song at a gig, forgot to REadjust the input of the effects DOWN to compensate for the extra level going into it from the send and the amp overloaded the effects which feed back into the return of the amp which feed back through the send into the effects, ETC ETC ETC, causing a MASSIVE BOOM, and my amp died.

Thats what has caused me months of problems trying to find a replacement amp after FOUR NEW Mesa Boogies were faulty from the distributor.
All I have done over the last 6 weeks is parcel up faulty amps to send back and waited for refunds that take a week or more. All because they don't wire the effects loop in a logical way.

The return should be in front on the Master so that when you adjust the amp volume you only adjust the amp sound as it is with effects already on it. Having it so the amp volume is the send level is stupid I think.
Mesa Boogie are my favourite amps and I don't want anything else, (although I would like a Soldano SLO 100), but the effects loop is just mental.

 

[nomad100hd]

hmm my channel master change fx level, but my amp has an mv after that and that is how i turn up and down my amp.

 

[tmac]

I turned the amp up for a song at a gig, forgot to REadjust the input of the effects DOWN to compensate for the extra level going into it from the send and the amp overloaded the effects which feed back into the return of the amp which feed back through the send into the effects, ETC ETC ETC, causing a MASSIVE BOOM, and my amp died.

I agree with you that it would be better to be able to adjust the MV without having to compensate on the effects in the loop . I will think about the possibility of modding my own Express (move the MV and maybe add a FX send level pot if necessary).

But I would like to understand more about what happend to your amp to prevent something similar happening to me: Why did the strong signal into to FX return feed back to the FX send so as to create a feedback loop? Shouldn't the signal into FX return just continueon towards the power section?

 

[UKBoogieboy]

Hi, I don't know, maybe the guitar picked it up sent it back or maybe it didn't actually loop, but the effects unit made a hell of a loud low end boom feedback as if forming a feedback loop. The Effects have got a level for the input with 3 green lights and one red clip light. The Red light was on permantly. If you set the input level on the effects and don't touch the amp you are fine, BUT... on the F50 and Express the tones are volumes! They tell you to turn the mid off for a sweet clean and yes it sweetens up but there is hardly any volume, turn the mid up and there is a MASSIVE increase in volume, so as the tones are also volumes, (turn the tones off and NO volume) you can't even adjust your tone controls either once set.

I think the effects loop is pretty useless in my opinion, thats only my opinion.

 

[tmac]

If you are interested, you could check out a program called The Duncan Tone Stack calculator:

http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/

It allows you to see graphs that describe how the tone controls in different type of amps affect the signal. For example: On the Fender Tone Stack, if the bass and treble are at 0, then the Mid actually acts exactly as a volume control. You can also see that the Fender tone stack cannot boost mids, only subtract. At least with the component values chosen for the Fender tone stack modelled in that program.

Personally, I like the "James" tone stack best of the ones in the Duncan Tone Stack calculator. I have put it into an amp that I built (an AX84 amp) and it works much better than the Marshall tone stack it originally had, for my needs. I had to modify some component values from what was displayed in the tone stack calculator, because otherwise it attennuated the signal too much. It only has two knobs, bass and treble.

The program does not contain the tone stack from the Mesa Express, although it might be similar to the Fender/Marshall ones. Nevertheless, it is interesting to see how the different tone stacks compare. I am happy with the possibilities that I get from the tone controls/contour on my Express, but this is very subjective, and also depends on the speakers of course. I have an Express 5:25 head together with an extra wide 1x12'' closed back cabinet (optionally half open back).

 

[Newysurfer]

But the Mesa Boogie effects loops send level are controlled by the master volumes which is MADNESS! You turn the volume up, the send into the effects go up, this makes calibrating effects impossible, and if you forget to REadjust the effects unit input EVERYTIME you change the volume of the amp you risk blowing the amp to pieces like I did.

I turned the amp up for a song at a gig, forgot to REadjust the input of the effects DOWN to compensate for the extra level going into it from the send and the amp overloaded the effects which feed back into the return of the amp which feed back through the send into the effects, ETC ETC ETC, causing a MASSIVE BOOM, and my amp died.

Thats what has caused me months of problems trying to find a replacement amp after FOUR NEW Mesa Boogies were faulty from the distributor.
All I have done over the last 6 weeks is parcel up faulty amps to send back and waited for refunds that take a week or more. All because they don't wire the effects loop in a logical way.

The return should be in front on the Master so that when you adjust the amp volume you only adjust the amp sound as it is with effects already on it. Having it so the amp volume is the send level is stupid I think.
Mesa Boogie are my favourite amps and I don't want anything else, (although I would like a Soldano SLO 100), but the effects loop is just mental.

Ah UKBoogie - I don't know what you did to that amp but I've never had this problem. It's a Series loop, that's what they do, they mix the both the amp & effects tones into one. Every other amp I've seen with a series loop does exactly the same thing.

 

[Don]

I don't have a problem using my Rotosphere in the effects loop of my Express 5:50. It requires very little adjustment when I change the master volume on the amp (and it sounds really good).

 

[MrMason]

I turned the amp up for a song at a gig, forgot to REadjust the input of the effects DOWN to compensate for the extra level going into it from the send and the amp overloaded the effects which feed back into the return of the amp which feed back through the send into the effects, ETC ETC ETC, causing a MASSIVE BOOM, and my amp died.

I agree with you that it would be better to be able to adjust the MV without having to compensate on the effects in the loop . I will think about the possibility of modding my own Express (move the MV and maybe add a FX send level pot if necessary).

But I would like to understand more about what happend to your amp to prevent something similar happening to me: Why did the strong signal into to FX return feed back to the FX send so as to create a feedback loop? Shouldn't the signal into FX return just continueon towards the power section?

I think he's talking about an amp with a parallel loop, the Express is series. The volume control on my Express doesn't change anything in relation to what's in the loop, aside from the overall tonal changes you get from changing the volume.