Is it weird that..

[cjae]

I turn the mids to about 2'oclock on my roadster? and the bass around 10o'clock?

I'm also boosting some mids via an eq pedal in the loop...

I get lost in the mix if I go lower than that...I knew that the rectifiers were
mid-less amps but jesus....

I'm loving the tone of the amp but just wish I could cut through better...

Do you think KT77s will give the amp more punch? I really don't have a problem with loose low end chuga chuga since I don't play chuga chuga all the time...

Also currently running all JJ preamp and 6l6 tubes. Do you think changing the V1,V2,V3 to dougs cocktail preamps help?

I currently have both on order and wondering what changes I can expect..

Thanks in advance,

 

[Chris McKinley]

cjae,

It sounds like your problem is already solved. You're running your mids at 2:00 and using an EQ in the loop to fine-tune it, right? So what exactly is still a problem? I'm not being facetious, it just really does sound like you've already solved the problem and are cutting through the mix like you wanted.

 

[cjae]

I guess I'm just totally not satisfied with my sound. Channel 4 in modern mode still lacks the "punch" if that makes any sense.

I mean yes I do cut through the mix but I think overall I'm still missing some punch and wondering if swapping tubes might help in this category at all.

My amp sounds great but damn the other guitar player's valveking 112 has more presence/punch in the mix

 

[siggy14]

What cab are you using? what are your other settings? and what other amps are in the band?

Seems weird you are not cutting through because there are many people using rec's and not having that problem.

I turn the mids to about 2'oclock on my roadster? and the bass around 10o'clock?

I'm also boosting some mids via an eq pedal in the loop...

I get lost in the mix if I go lower than that...I knew that the rectifiers were
mid-less amps but jesus....

I'm loving the tone of the amp but just wish I could cut through better...

Do you think KT77s will give the amp more punch? I really don't have a problem with loose low end chuga chuga since I don't play chuga chuga all the time...

Also currently running all JJ preamp and 6l6 tubes. Do you think changing the V1,V2,V3 to dougs cocktail preamps help?

I currently have both on order and wondering what changes I can expect..

Thanks in advance,

 

[Murphy Slaw]

WTF?

Valvekings are junk, I saw one nearly catch fire.

What is your guitar, and what is his guitar?

Something is very wrong.

Murph.

 

[domct203]

My Roadster cuts with no problem. Are you sure all is good with your p'ups, cables, etc.?

I personally find the JJ's dark sounding when used in V1, especially when followed with another in V2.

Before you go and spend money, if you have your original Mesa 12AX7's throw them back in to see what happens. Try a Mesa in V1 and see what happens, or better yet throw them all back in then try the JJ's one at a time in V1 - V3, then in combinations. See if a certain combo works for you at stage volume. Remember V1 will influence the amps overall tone the most.

Doug's cocktail is OK, I tried it and found some useful tones, but nothing that made me say "wow". IMO the Sovtek LPS is a good choice for a Current Production PI tube. The Tung-Sol Reissue is OK in V1, and there is something I do like about a High Gain JJ in V2 occasionally. I ran a slightly different lineup based on Doug's cocktail with the Tung-Sol V1, JJ83S V2, JJ 803S in V3, Mesa's V4 & V5, Sovtek LPS V6. The amp cut through fine, but after a few months it seemed sterile to my ears.

I've had some great experiences with Vintage & NOS tubes in my preamp, especially in V1 - V4 of my Roadster. If you educate yourself and shop wisely they really are not that expensive. The best thing I ever did for my tone was put a Vintage RFT 12AX7 in V1. That made me an instant believer.

As far as the KT-77's, although I've never tried them, I get the impression they are a nice compromise of both 6L6 & EL34 character. I've tried EL34's in my Rectifiers, but always come back to 6L6GC.

Good luck,

Dom

 

[cjae]

whew that was quick. Thanks alot for the replies!

I play prs guitars, an emg equipped LP for drop C tunes, and a strat occasionally.

my main guitars are a custom 24 and a SC245 both stock. Cables are George Ls.

I'm thinking the JJ preamp tubes might just be too dark since I'm turning up the treble and presence on channel 3 and 4. Gain is about 1:30 o'clock.

The other guitar player plays a gibson lespaul and I agree, the valveking is not a great amp but for some reason it sits in the mix very well. I'm thinking because it is such a bright and mid range focused amp. My amp definitly sounds meaner and better than the valveking..but certainly lacks some punch.

Anyhow, I just ordered some KT77s, Tung-sol and Penta preamps.

I don't know if this video will help..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjkZHBJd5OY

It's a single rectifier and ENGL amp A/Bed.. i'm not necessary saying that the ENGL sounds better or the mesa sounds better, but I certainly fell that the ENGL has more punch than the mesa. I'm hoping different tubes will help me get more of this punch.

Oh I'm also playing through an avatar 2x12 with vintage 30s.

I really appreciate your help. thanks.

 

[R_ADKINS80]

using a OD of any kind? I can't play my triple rec without one.

 

[jdurso]

if your problem is punch i would say ditch your 2x12 for either a 4x12 or a front ported/vented cab like a Port City Wave 2x12, a Freda 2x12 or a Genz Benz 2x12 Glex or a EarCandy Buzzbomb 2x12. The reason i say a 4x12 or a ported cab is because a traditional 2x12 is a lot tighter and very difficult to get that classic 4x12 punch out of. I even use (2) 2X12s and still feel less punch than a 4x12. A ported cab throws extra air out the front which usually gives you a more prominent bass and more punch which for some is great and for others not so great. if your looking to stick with a 2x12 i would go to an oversized recto cab, a vht fat bottom, a bogner OS or a Diezel 2x12. all of those cabs are slightly oversized and produce more punch than other 2x12s but still isnt in the league of a good 4x12.

As for the kt77s... i think they will help you cut through the mix better but may not give you the punch your after. I think the punch will come from the right cab to be honest. i still think the kt77s might be a good fit for you because it will allow you to back off the mids slightly on the amp and really use that eq in the loop to get a more punchy tone. The best way for me to describe the kt77 is that it has the aggressive, cutting tone of the el34 but retains the girth of the 6l6 which means you retain a the big bottom end and superior cleans but also get the tighter, agressive characteristics of the el34. i also found with kt77s in my roadster that i could dial in more gain without it getting flubby and everything about the amp seemed tighter. throw a nice OD and front and then the magic starts really happening.

 

[cjae]

Hope the KT77s will do that for me. I have an OCD and boy, what a wonderful pedal.

Unfortunately, changing cabs is not really an option due to $$$. I'm quite happy with my 2x12 for now.

Hope different tubes and some better eqing will yield better results. If they don't, oh well.. I'm pretty darn happy with my tone right now..it's just that 2% that I seem to be missing.

Anyhow, thanks for your advice.

 

[siggy14]

I agree, I would go with a 4x12. If you have that 2x12 sitting on the ground normaly then I could see why you dont hear yourself in the mix. You would defintly need to face it up.

if your problem is punch i would say ditch your 2x12 for either a 4x12 or a front ported/vented cab like a Port City Wave 2x12, a Freda 2x12 or a Genz Benz 2x12 Glex or a EarCandy Buzzbomb 2x12. The reason i say a 4x12 or a ported cab is because a traditional 2x12 is a lot tighter and very difficult to get that classic 4x12 punch out of. I even use (2) 2X12s and still feel less punch than a 4x12. A ported cab throws extra air out the front which usually gives you a more prominent bass and more punch which for some is great and for others not so great. if your looking to stick with a 2x12 i would go to an oversized recto cab, a vht fat bottom, a bogner OS or a Diezel 2x12. all of those cabs are slightly oversized and produce more punch than other 2x12s but still isnt in the league of a good 4x12.

As for the kt77s... i think they will help you cut through the mix better but may not give you the punch your after. I think the punch will come from the right cab to be honest. i still think the kt77s might be a good fit for you because it will allow you to back off the mids slightly on the amp and really use that eq in the loop to get a more punchy tone. The best way for me to describe the kt77 is that it has the aggressive, cutting tone of the el34 but retains the girth of the 6l6 which means you retain a the big bottom end and superior cleans but also get the tighter, agressive characteristics of the el34. i also found with kt77s in my roadster that i could dial in more gain without it getting flubby and everything about the amp seemed tighter. throw a nice OD and front and then the magic starts really happening.

 

[Roaster]

I would agree on trying another cab. I speak from personal experience, as I also own an Avatar 2x12 that suffers from the lack of presence and punch you're describing. I went through a couple of gigs with it wondering why I couldn't dial in anything I liked, and it all came back to the cab. Not to speak ill of Avatar, the build quality is top notch and they're a great value - but the 2x12 is missing something for me. As most would agree, nothing beats a 4x12, but who the hell wants to lug one? My 2x12 Rectifier Vertical Slant cab with C90s sounds every bit as good as a 4x12 to me, and is a little easier to get around with - can't recommend it enough. I would suggest seeking one out to give it a try - I've also read good things about the Basson 2x12 slant, but have yet to try one.

 

[jdurso]

I would agree on trying another cab. I speak from personal experience, as I also own an Avatar 2x12 that suffers from the lack of presence and punch you're describing. I went through a couple of gigs with it wondering why I couldn't dial in anything I liked, and it all came back to the cab. Not to speak ill of Avatar, the build quality is top notch and they're a great value - but the 2x12 is missing something for me. As most would agree, nothing beats a 4x12, but who the hell wants to lug one? My 2x12 Rectifier Vertical Slant cab with C90s sounds every bit as good as a 4x12 to me, and is a little easier to get around with - can't recommend it enough. I would suggest seeking one out to give it a try - I've also read good things about the Basson 2x12 slant, but have yet to try one.

as far as a 2x12 rivaling a 4x12 the only ones in my experience that do it well are the ported/vented cabs. I've had the pleasure of playing my Roadster through both a Port City Wave OS 2x12 and a Freda Live 2x12. Both sounded great and were a little different due to the design and the speakers. The PCW had a v30 and something else (can't recall) and the Freda had a Eminence Govenor/Texas Heat mix. Both cabs produced the punch of a 4x12, had very good bass response, were tight and had a very multi-dimensional type spread sort of like a closed back. Also the Freda was very light which made portability a breeze.

 

[jdurso]

Hope the KT77s will do that for me. I have an OCD and boy, what a wonderful pedal.

Unfortunately, changing cabs is not really an option due to $$$. I'm quite happy with my 2x12 for now.

Hope different tubes and some better eqing will yield better results. If they don't, oh well.. I'm pretty darn happy with my tone right now..it's just that 2% that I seem to be missing.

Anyhow, thanks for your advice.

like i said in the previous post, the KT77s might be more of the tone your looking for but as far as punch goes, that is mostly defined by your cab. You can kind of trick you cab by properly eq'ing your signal in the loop but thats like modelling a cab (actual thats almost exactly how modellers do cab sims). Now you may find thats an easy solution but to be honest nothing compares to the real thing (which is why we play tube amps). But if it works for you then let'er rip.

If you do end up sticking with the EQ to produce the punch, what i've found works for me is to leave your mids on the amp around 11"30-12 oclock and add your mids in the loop via the EQ. The reason i say this is the Recto's mids aren't really punchy... they cut well but i cant find the punch in them like i've found in the mark IV. So the best thing i've found to do it is leave them around noon and boost them slightly with the 800 and 1.6k hz levels on the eq in the loop. I also raise up the 100 hz slightly and drop the 200 and 400 hz slightly. for my setup thats all the punch in the world and i only use it for leads so they cut or for trash metal type stuff.

About the $$$ thing i definitely hear where your coming from. If you were to consider a 4x12 or ported/vented 2x12 or vertical 2x12, look around on craigslist as I see a bunch of great deals pop up week in and week out. the thing about a 4x12 is no one wants to ship them so usually when you find a local one you get a decent price on it. Also you'd be suprised how selling some old gear and random stuff that you dont use, can add up in $$$. i just sold some gear that was collecting dust and some electronic odds and ends and raised up about $1700 in the last few weeks which is allowing me to buy the Fractal axe-fx... i was stunned how much $$$ i had just lying around in unused stuff. Its something to consider.

 

[speedy mcfeely]

where do you set your presence? I have found that presence really makes the notes "pop" on most amps. I am not too familiar with rectos, but try boosting your presence a little more.

I think the Blackmore had a lot more presence in your video.

 

[jdurso]

where do you set your presence? I have found that presence really makes the notes "pop" on most amps. I am not too familiar with rectos, but try boosting your presence a little more.

I think the Blackmore had a lot more presence in your video.

actually i've found on the rectos turning down the presence is best for leads... that is as long as you have your treble near 12 oclock.

 

[Roaster]

as far as a 2x12 rivaling a 4x12 the only ones in my experience that do it well are the ported/vented cabs. I've had the pleasure of playing my Roadster through both a Port City Wave OS 2x12 and a Freda Live 2x12. Both sounded great and were a little different due to the design and the speakers. The PCW had a v30 and something else (can't recall) and the Freda had a Eminence Govenor/Texas Heat mix. Both cabs produced the punch of a 4x12, had very good bass response, were tight and had a very multi-dimensional type spread sort of like a closed back. Also the Freda was very light which made portability a breeze.

Those Freda cabs look great - wish I could plug into one locally to check it out. I've been in the market for a VHT Fatbottom 2x12 for my Pittbull - but these Freda cabs might fit the bill at a nicer price. J, have you played through a Fatbottom? And if so, how would it compare to the Freda? Thanks...

 

[DS-1]

whew that was quick. Thanks alot for the replies!

I play prs guitars, an emg equipped LP for drop C tunes, and a strat occasionally.

my main guitars are a custom 24 and a SC245 both stock. Cables are George Ls.

I'm thinking the JJ preamp tubes might just be too dark since I'm turning up the treble and presence on channel 3 and 4. Gain is about 1:30 o'clock.

The other guitar player plays a gibson lespaul and I agree, the valveking is not a great amp but for some reason it sits in the mix very well. I'm thinking because it is such a bright and mid range focused amp. My amp definitly sounds meaner and better than the valveking..but certainly lacks some punch.

Anyhow, I just ordered some KT77s, Tung-sol and Penta preamps.

I don't know if this video will help..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjkZHBJd5OY

It's a single rectifier and ENGL amp A/Bed.. i'm not necessary saying that the ENGL sounds better or the mesa sounds better, but I certainly fell that the ENGL has more punch than the mesa. I'm hoping different tubes will help me get more of this punch.

Oh I'm also playing through an avatar 2x12 with vintage 30s.

I really appreciate your help. thanks.

I've got the same problem in my band! The other guitarist plays with a Brunetti (italian brand) EL-34 based, while I have a Triple Recto. The difference in the sound is almost the same showed in this Youtube link: my Mesa sound darker and then it will disappear in the mix. I was thinking to buy EL-34 for my Triple, because I've red here that it could move the mid cut from low to high, but reading this post I noticed that you're talking about preamp tubes, too. What do you think we could to to "open" the sound of our Rectifier?

 

[jdurso]

as far as a 2x12 rivaling a 4x12 the only ones in my experience that do it well are the ported/vented cabs. I've had the pleasure of playing my Roadster through both a Port City Wave OS 2x12 and a Freda Live 2x12. Both sounded great and were a little different due to the design and the speakers. The PCW had a v30 and something else (can't recall) and the Freda had a Eminence Govenor/Texas Heat mix. Both cabs produced the punch of a 4x12, had very good bass response, were tight and had a very multi-dimensional type spread sort of like a closed back. Also the Freda was very light which made portability a breeze.

Those Freda cabs look great - wish I could plug into one locally to check it out. I've been in the market for a VHT Fatbottom 2x12 for my Pittbull - but these Freda cabs might fit the bill at a nicer price. J, have you played through a Fatbottom? And if so, how would it compare to the Freda? Thanks...

I've played through both and don't think it would be fair to compare the two because there totally different designs which yield different results. Both are amazingly built, rugged cabs. Both sound amazing in terms of what they do best. I find the Freda has a fuller, more open tone and has a pretty big bass response. Not as tight as a traditional close back cab but still works great for palm muting. The one type of music i can't picture it being well suited for is over the top, super fast metal as it has a more open sound... not that it sounds bad but there are better cabs for that type of music.

The Fat Bottom is one of those cabs built for super tight, super fast palm muting. I would peg the fat bottom as almost a Marshall/Mesa hybrid as far as cabs go. Personally i love the response of the P50 speakers for the high gain stuff as they seem to break up at just the right spot. Now the one caveat is the FB212 is not going to sound as big as the Freda 2x12 obviously because its fully enclosed, hence why it sounds tighter and a little more defined. If you wanted something between the Freda and the FB212 i would take a look at the Deliverance 2x12. It's still as tight as the FB212 but has a little more open feel like the Freda.

So again its not too fair to compare the two head to head without knowing which is a better fit for what you do. They both have strong points and are better suited for some application and not others. So i look at it like this:

Classic rock to Heavy Rock - Freda
Heavy Rock to Heavy Metal - D212
Heavy Metal to super Trashy Metal - FB212

 

[jdurso]

I've got the same problem in my band! The other guitarist plays with a Brunetti (italian brand) EL-34 based, while I have a Triple Recto. The difference in the sound is almost the same showed in this Youtube link: my Mesa sound darker and then it will disappear in the mix. I was thinking to buy EL-34 for my Triple, because I've red here that it could move the mid cut from low to high, but reading this post I noticed that you're talking about preamp tubes, too. What do you think we could to to "open" the sound of our Rectifier?

what cab are you playing through?