If a stomp box is stomped in the forest, does anybody hear

[mtodd6]

I'm new to Mesa ownership & to this forum so please forgive me if this is a perennial thread & may the Moderator In The Sky strike my thread from the tablets...

I just got a Mesa Express 5:50. I really like the amp & yes, it "takes" pedals well, but the reason I didn't spring for the TA-15 was no effects loop & you lose a lot putting anything in front of your Mesa preamp & I *wanted* Mesa distortion. I inherited a Boss Metal pedal with the amp & it sounds interesting, even in the loop. Of course, the modulation & delay effects sound much better in the loop, but I wish the 5:50 had a relay bypass & footswitch on the effects loop.

My question is why use OD pedals at all? I guess if you need a Marshall/EL34 sound for a song, ok, but I wanted a Mesa because it sounds like Mesa distortion. And we fought a war on all-tube amps since the early 1980s, so now you stick a non-tube circuit between you & a Mesa preamp?!?! Yes, it may be a mosfet analog path with a true electro-mechanical bypass, but it's still not tube. I remember Musicman made some solid state preamp with tube power stages & they just didn't sound as good as the all tube stuff, and that's what you're doing plugging a BB or OCD or other boutiquey pedal in front. Why not just plug your pedal board into a Mesa power amp? I've seen some rigs like this and they sound ok.

I'm an engineer & I keep arguing with other engineers that tubes can not be modeled, i.e. if everything utlimately goes linear PCM 16 bits on a CD, why can't we build a DSP? You guys are undercutting my argument by sticking digital modeling or solid state analog stuff before the preamp! Or maybe Leo was right to make solid state preamp Music Man amps ;-> That's what we really wanted except for a few purists playing jazz or blues in small clubs.

I even built me a Fender Deluxe 5E3 & Marshall 50W plexi heads to get away from relays in the signal path & there is a difference with circuit board-based amp IMHO, but a channel switching amp is so convenient & I need less pedals to change my sound, maybe a little compression & some delay. So why do people use OD pedals so much through a channel switching amp? Is it like ladies & their shoe collection?

 

[Icenyne1]

I may be way over my head here in reply to your thread, but one thing I know for sure; after hearing what my dual recs three channels can do I will never use another OD PEDAL AGAIN! I just wish I could figure out a pedal switcher unit without compromising the use of my amps channels mute, solo, and loop. I just hate how much space that dual rec footswitch takes up on my pedal board. Any suggestions?

 

[mtodd6]

Your response is kinda what I expected to hear -- you buy a dual or triple channel amp to use the other channels & not gum up your preamp with a bunch of pedals. I'm surprised that folks still feel the need to stick an OD pedal in front of a Mesa.

Unless you use a lot of modulation effects (chorus/trem/phasing/etc) , I would think that a compressor & delay in your loop is all you need. I can easily fit my compressor & delay & 5:50 footswitch in my 6 space pedal case.

For my Fender clean rig, I use a true bypass switch to skip everything if needed.

 

[rocknroll9225]

just to clear some things up...

never use an overdrive or distortion pedal in an fx loop. there are only a few ways of hooking up pedals that i would label as being "wrong", but that's one of them. compressors should also be put in front.

the vast majority of people running overdrives in front of their mesa amps are using them to simply boost the distortion from the amp just over the edge. for example, many people who play rectifiers put tubescreamers in front of the amp (with the gain knob on the pedal literally almost all the way down) because the pedal's natural character boosts the mids and tightens up the bass, which is an effect that cant be achieved by turning the knobs on the amp. some others use different dist/OD pedals to get more "channels" available by using the pedals on the clean channel.

i agree though, that ever since ive made the adventure into tube amp land, i simply cannot play through distortion pedals alone anymore. the sound makes me want to put my guitar down.

 

[MrMarkIII]

Variety, spice, etc.

 

[mtodd6]

MarkII, I agree if you're using OD as a pre-gain stage, then yeah it should go in front. If you have a digital OD pedal, or digital multi-fx, with stomp distortion or amp modeling, I don't see any issue with it going in the fx loop unless the preamp stage colors the sound before the OD in a way you don't like. The power amp is just amplifying, what can be with adjustments, a line level signal. With an analog OD in front & the 5:50 on super clean, the pre-amp in the 5:50 is not doing that much except equalization.

But I agree with your general outline due to the whole idea of cascading gain stages in the amp. However, I don't think I would try to have a modulation loop for fx & another section for pre-gain stuff like OD & compression. Not sure I could keep the footswitching straight without a flow chart.

As for compression, I would tend to agree, but I apply compression in the last/post stage when recording. It sounds different, but I wouldn't say I don't like it. As for my ME-70 pedal, I don't have any choice because it doesn't have an fx loop allowing a 4 cable configuration. I only use that pedal for delay mostly & modulation effects.

 

[MrMarkIII]

However, I don't think I would try to have a modulation loop for fx & another section for pre-gain stuff like OD & compression. Not sure I could keep the footswitching straight without a flow chart.

This is exactly the purpose of the four-cable method, is it not?
It's just as easy to do with separate stomps as it is with an MFX.
All you need is four cables.

 

[ryjan]

I'm an engineer & I keep arguing with other engineers that tubes can not be modeled

My Axe-Fx fooled me. :wink:
I fully agree with you on the OD pedal thing in front of an amp. I tried it because of all the talk on a Mark IV, Marshall JCM900, Dual Recto, and a Peavey Ultra. Every amp totally lost it's mojo with a TS or an Xotic RC in front. The sound gets mushy, over saturated, and completely loses all touch sensetivity. Developing a good touch on the fretboard and pick technique will make anyone sound better than shoving a bunch of junk onto their signal chan.