How different is the EV speaker used on older Mark combo amps vs the Black Shadow celestion speaker on newer Boogie Mark VII combo amps?

[Revelation]

The EV speaker was known to be super clean, loud, and very heavy. I always wondered why Boogie used that speaker over a Celestion which has quicker break up that they use now?

Has anyone ever A/B these two speakers?

 

[bandit2013]

The EVM12L black shadow speaker has a much flatter frequency response. I never new the MC90 existed until I got a Mark IVB combo. My Mark III had the EV speaker. At the time, I did compare the two speakers but found that the Mark IVB was tuned quite differently than the Mark III.

Mark IVB sounded boxy through the EV speaker and the Mark III sounded different through the MC90.

Moving forward to 2023, I had sold my Mark III combo in 2012 so I could not compare it to the JP2C or Mark VII. However, I did stuff an EVM12L classic into a widebody 112 open back cabinet. Also refurbished a Mesa oversized recto 412 with EVM12L Black Labels. I would say that both classic and black label speakers sound very much alike. Just a slight difference but not worth mentioning.

JP2C and Mark VII sound amazing with the EVM12L classic on all channels. Really good speaker for the Mark VII, JP2C or older Marks before the Mark IVb. The Mark V90 and Mark IVB had some tuning changes and do not work with the EV speaker for some odd reason.

I actually have the EVM12L classic mounted in the Mark V90 combo and the widebody 112 shown below.

 

[rarebitusa]

The EV speaker was known to be super clean, loud, and very heavy. I always wondered why Boogie used that speaker over a Celestion which has quicker break up that they use now?

Has anyone ever A/B these two speakers?

Night and day comparison IMHO. Done alot of comparisons and mixing of them. The EVM is a very neutral speaker, efficient and represents the tone of the amp while the MC-90 will add it's character to the amp. The EVM to my ears is best with a Mark series amp, 80s & 90s versions for sure. With my IIC+ it's the right fit. Mesa knew what they were doing with pairing them. Now I will differ with Bandit a bit on the V perspective , I actually do like it with the EVM with it . However my V sounds even better with the EVM / v30 2x12 pairing.

On the flip side the EVM is not my choice with the LSS or the Stiletto, the MC-90 is a more compatible and what you'd expect tonally, just a more familiar sound. I think the MC-90 is good all around choice, it doesn't rock the boat too much, it can be a bit meh in comparison to other choices but it never sounds bad.

 

[bandit2013]

I was going to add one thing to this. There is another speaker that is supposed to have a similar characteristic to the EVM12L. I bring this up since the MC90 is rear baffle mounted. The EVM12L (including the Mesa EVM12L Black Shadow) will not fit properly in a combo due to the oversized basket and ceramic magnet if rear baffle mounted. I can only speak with experience when I tried to mount one in the Mark IVB combo and when I converted the Mark V90 head to a combo. Obviously, the layout was different with the Mark IVB than the Mark V90. There was still little room to gain access for the preamp tubes. Tube shields do stick out far enough. My only option was to sand down the speaker opening with a round drum sander using an air compressor tool to prevent any divots on the round surface so that the speaker could be front baffle mounted the way the Mark III was made. This also required modification to the speaker grill as there was not enough room for clearance the way the frame itself was made.

The speaker in the image is an Organic Timber Rapsody G12 which is a reverse engineered EVM12L speaker from the early 90's. It does not have a flat response curve like an Electro Voice speaker. The basket is a lot larger too. Note, I did not use the T-nuts as that requires drilling the holes larger where there is not enough wood to do so. I use washers and locking nuts. Hex cap screws if into the holes on the speaker just right. I took these pictures when I changed from the OTR to the EVM12L classic.

Considering that Mesa had no plans to bring back the EVM12L black shadow, either due to cost or what ever else was the issue with that as an offering, trying to get an EV speaker to fit into the new Mark VII combo may be more of a hassle. So the alternate speaker that is a new product from Celestion is the Copper back. Much lighter in weight as it uses a neo driver. 2.5" voice coil and supposedly has a flat response curve. It should work as a direct replacement for the MC90 if you decide to go that route. I have not tired one out yet. I was waiting for reviews of the speaker.

https://celestion.com/product/neo-copperback/
I copied the frequency response of the copper back

Here is the frequency response of the EVM12L classic (same for the black label). As for the Mesa Black Shadow version, it would probably be similar.

I am sure there are differences between the two. I only bring it up as the Celestion copper back should fit without having to modify the cabinet.

 

[domct203]

The Eminence Delta Pro 12A is also mentioned as similar to the EVM, I have one in a home made theile cab and it sounds great in there.

Dom

 

[Revelation]

Thank you for your replies. I'm actually very happy with the speaker they installed in the Mesa Mark VII. There is not one thing about the speaker I am not happy about. The only thing that I wished was for Mesa to have a slightly larger cabinet

Night and day comparison IMHO. Done alot of comparisons and mixing of them. The EVM is a very neutral speaker, efficient and represents the tone of the amp while the MC-90 will add it's character to the amp. The EVM to my ears is best with a Mark series amp, 80s & 90s versions for sure. With my IIC+ it's the right fit. Mesa knew what they were doing with pairing them. Now I will differ with Bandit a bit on the V perspective , I actually do like it with the EVM with it . However my V sounds even better with the EVM / v30 2x12 pairing.

On the flip side the EVM is not my choice with the LSS or the Stiletto, the MC-90 is a more compatible and what you'd expect tonally, just a more familiar sound. I think the MC-90 is good all around choice, it doesn't rock the boat too much, it can be a bit meh in comparison to other choices but it never sounds bad.

I understand that the EVM is very neutral, but what character would you say the M-90 have. I personally like what I am hearing through the speaker but I would like to know more about the speaker. My guess is it breaks up faster, is clean, but not as neutral as the EVM?

 

[woodbutcher65]

I gather up EVM-12Ls as I find them if they're inexpensive and in good condition. I plan to fill a 4x12 with them when I have four saved up for the task.

The EV is a tight fit even in a Mark II combo. You have to rotate it just right so the frame doesn't contact any tubes or shields.

It's my single favorite type of guitar speaker and always will be.

I ignore all copies and pretenders to the throne. Only genuine Electrovoice EVM-12Ls for me. Or certain Celestions.

 

[Eevil]

Edit:

added nothing useful for this conversation - removed

 

[bandit2013]

I will admit, I am not a huge fan of the MC90. Tone is good but power handling capacity is subject. I have gone through a few. Mostly due to the dust cap popping off. The only one I have left that is in good shape is the one I pulled from the widebody cab. Perhaps if I am willing to do this, I could make a demo video of the MC90 VS EVM12L Classic using the wide body 112 cab. I could also throw in the redback as well. Even the Jensen Jet Blackbird 100W Alnico. If I do this, it will be with only the Mark VII amp. Depends on how eager I am in making a video. I tend to procrastinate on doing such. However, since it is not a comparison between two amps, just in change of speaker it will take time but easier as the mics use will be the same for all recordings. Won't have to worry about one mic not matching the other. That actually sounds like a fun thing to do. Will have to leave out the grill so you can see the speaker under test. If I am thinking about it, I will throw in the OTR as well. Should I bother with the EVM black label speaker. I have a few of those in boxes. Some were made in the USA and the others were made in Mexico (EVM12L that is). Now I am curious how the Mark VII would sound with the different doughnuts I have.

As for the Mark III having such a small envelope, it was a beast in all respects. I used that in my band and it kept up with the bass and drums quite well. When running a single speaker, you tend to push the volume up for a gig level to blend or cut through the mix. Much different with the Vertical 212 cab or a 412 cab. The Mark VII is loud as it is with the volume control at 9am. It reminds me of the Badlander, loud. I am impressed with the Mark VII. In comparison, the JP2C has to be set to noon to have the same volume level. I should probably check V2 and the phase inverter tubes (V5). Those two are critical on the back end. Not only is V2 used for the FX loop, the recovery stage is also used for the channel master volumes. If such a video would be of interest, I will try to get it done in late November while on vacation. I have something different planed for December.

I also ordered one of those Boogie 410 cabs. My curiosity got the best of me. I will not see that until end of the year though. Bummer. I am curious to find out how it sounds by itself and when combined with the widebody 112 (EVM12L or another speaker).

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MB410OB--mesa-boogie-4-by-10-inch-boogie-open-back-cabinet

 

[tbonesullivan]

When was the MC90 introduced? I was looking for a Mark III for a while, and plenty of them have the MC90 installed, and said it was the original speaker. I'm assuming that the EV speaker was an upcharge. I found a 1984 catalog online, and it shows the Celestion C90 as well as the EV series of speakers.

 

[rarebitusa]

wow 84 eh' I wouldn't have guessed that early

 

[bandit2013]

Interesting. I had no idea those were available back then. I did not have an option when I bought the Mark III, All they had in an affordable package was the Simul-Class Combo with the EVM black shadow speaker. I bought that in 1989.

I guess that may be accurate with the year stated. I do recall some of the 412 boogie cabs that were half back had the EVM12 in the bottom and the MC90 up top. What about the Eminence black Shadow ore was that just for the 15 inch model. IIB? I no longer have the old catalogs or information as I gave that to the person I sold the Mark III along with the full schematic, extra preamp tubes and a few power tubes. Also included the 112 cab I had made with the 1990 EVM12L classic speaker.

Found this on the web. I think that magnet is larger than the EV.

 

[user 41014]

Interesting. I had no idea those were available back then. I did not have an option when I bought the Mark III, All they had in an affordable package was the Simul-Class Combo with the EVM black shadow speaker. I bought that in 1989.

I guess that may be accurate with the year stated. I do recall some of the 412 boogie cabs that were half back had the EVM12 in the bottom and the MC90 up top. What about the Eminence black Shadow ore was that just for the 15 inch model. IIB? I no longer have the old catalogs or information as I gave that to the person I sold the Mark III along with the full schematic, extra preamp tubes and a few power tubes. Also included the 112 cab I had made with the 1990 EVM12L classic speaker.

Found this on the web. I think that magnet is larger than the EV.

View attachment 2345

That, as it says, is the MS-12 by Eminence. They also made the 1st "Vintage BS" VS-12 50W that can be labelled or back in black. Don't have a good scale right now but don't think a MS-12 is the 20lb boat anchor of an EVM, maybe 12-15lbs. You see them a lot in the IIC's and SOB's from 83-85.

All of the EVM 12L, MS-12, VS-12, MC90 and t4335 V30's were in the halfbacks, usually EVM or VS-12 in the bottom of the early ones before the V30 showed up in the bottom of the 4JB. The MS-12 seems more common in the combos.

The old 15" BS is a EVM 15L. That one that came with my plus tho it was blown. I was going to see if great plains would put a new vc in since I have 417-8H that also needs a new vc but I see posts suggesting it's time to move on from GPA. Someone here suggested recones and vc's aren't that hard to learn.

 

[VisaL]

I was going to add one thing to this. There is another speaker that is supposed to have a similar characteristic to the EVM12L. I bring this up since the MC90 is rear baffle mounted. The EVM12L (including the Mesa EVM12L Black Shadow) will not fit properly in a combo due to the oversized basket and ceramic magnet if rear baffle mounted. I can only speak with experience when I tried to mount one in the Mark IVB combo and when I converted the Mark V90 head to a combo. Obviously, the layout was different with the Mark IVB than the Mark V90. There was still little room to gain access for the preamp tubes. Tube shields do stick out far enough. My only option was to sand down the speaker opening with a round drum sander using an air compressor tool to prevent any divots on the round surface so that the speaker could be front baffle mounted the way the Mark III was made. This also required modification to the speaker grill as there was not enough room for clearance the way the frame itself was made. View attachment 2339View attachment 2340

The speaker in the image is an Organic Timber Rapsody G12 which is a reverse engineered EVM12L speaker from the early 90's. It does not have a flat response curve like an Electro Voice speaker. The basket is a lot larger too. Note, I did not use the T-nuts as that requires drilling the holes larger where there is not enough wood to do so. I use washers and locking nuts. Hex cap screws if into the holes on the speaker just right. I took these pictures when I changed from the OTR to the EVM12L classic. View attachment 2341

Considering that Mesa had no plans to bring back the EVM12L black shadow, either due to cost or what ever else was the issue with that as an offering, trying to get an EV speaker to fit into the new Mark VII combo may be more of a hassle. So the alternate speaker that is a new product from Celestion is the Copper back. Much lighter in weight as it uses a neo driver. 2.5" voice coil and supposedly has a flat response curve. It should work as a direct replacement for the MC90 if you decide to go that route. I have not tired one out yet. I was waiting for reviews of the speaker.

https://celestion.com/product/neo-copperback/
I copied the frequency response of the copper back
View attachment 2342

Here is the frequency response of the EVM12L classic (same for the black label). As for the Mesa Black Shadow version, it would probably be similar.

View attachment 2343
I am sure there are differences between the two. I only bring it up as the Celestion copper back should fit without having to modify the cabinet.

Thanks for this, I was looking for ev graph but this is clearer than what I found. That’s pretty much what I’m hearing as well, good amount of mids and quite a bit upper mid sizzle. I’m not so sure this is that neutral speaker. Eminence swamp thang has also that 1k midbump and sounds really good with marks, even with rectos. I think Emi Delta Pro was too dark which you can also make out from the graph at their site. @5k it is -10db down.

I think I should mount EV and swamp Thang in recto 2x12 and make it heaviest 2x12 ever made.

 

[woodbutcher65]

Actually an EVM-12L weighs 16 pounds. I had the MC-90 in my widebody Mark IV and it was OK but I definitely consider the EV to be superior. I no longer have that amp so I can't compare the EV to the 90 at this time.

I have yet to find any instance in which an Eminence speaker was the best sounding option according to my ears. I've always preferred an EV or one Celestion or another. Almost always something in the Greenback or Creamback family.

 

[user 41014]

Actually an EVM-12L weighs 16 pounds. I had the MC-90 in my widebody Mark IV and it was OK but I definitely consider the EV to be superior. I no longer have that amp so I can't compare the EV to the 90 at this time.

I have yet to find any instance in which an Eminence speaker was the best sounding option according to my ears. I've always preferred an EV or one Celestion or another. Almost always something in the Greenback or Creamback family.

Actually, if your 12L only weighs 16lbs it is not a 12L.

 

[woodbutcher65]

Let me correct myself. The magnet structure of a 12L weighs 16 pounds. I know because I had one salvaged off the broken basket assembly of one that was in a cabinet that took a header off a stage. Since I didn't weigh the basket assembly I don't have the total weight.

 

[bandit2013]

Total weight of the EVM12L is 19 lbs. I feel the magnetic strength of the V30 is a bit more reactive than the EVM12L. I got a hammer stuck to one while trying to break the rear panel free of the one 412 cab I was going to rebuild. Those side handles did not leave much room but managed to break the back free from its sticky sealant. The MC90 magnet is also very strong. I have that on my desk at work. I also had a blast breaking that speaker down too. I did the screw driver in the cone thing first, funny it did sound better that way. Anyhow, I had a thick block of steel I had machined to print for a fixture I was going to use in the lab. It was not smart of me to place it onto the magnet. I could not separate the steel block from the magnet by hand (it was on the voice coil side and not the rear side with the label on it). Had to use a vice in the work area to get it off.