Help with my Stiletto Ace

[jamme61]

Weird, I've never heard that on my Ace at all jamme61, maybe you had a flunky tube or something?

Yea I hoped it was a tube and tried many but, it was always there. I loved the stiletto for the heavyier stuff but the low gain crunch tone had problems. Again I didn't hear this for the first month so maybe there was a problem with my amp. The problem is getting something like this fixed would be tough, and would have wanted to ship it back to mesa. That would have been tro much cash. I think Timmons might be using his BB pedal to get that low crunch sound.

 

[cliff hetfield]

I'd recommend a 2X12.

ive seen it first hand. thats the solution.

like i said hellatone 60Ls makes my buddy's stilleto ace combo sound insane.

 

[srf399]

Actually Timmons used Marshall's and the Lonestar on the Resolution CD and probably Laney's before that. Live he's using the Deuce II not the Ace. If there is a trait like that in the Stiletto's maybe it's with the Ace cause I've not heard it with the Deuce. I also amd more into clean and high gain and don't use medium crunch often.

 

[Charles Reeder]

Greetings:

jamme61 wrote:

"I was able to dial the treble where I wanted it but, i could never get rid of this nasty clipping sound (like when a digital recorder distorts, nasty sound) It was most noticble on low gain crunch settings. If you whacked the strings hard you would hear this nasty digital clipping sound. I went crazy with tubes, speakers, pedals, it was nasty and my band members complained that the amp didn't sound good(which crucshed my ***) I brought over my freind(great guitar player and has a million amps) I didn't say anything and he heard it right away. maybe there was something wrong with my amp, if not then mesa has a problem with these amps. Again if you run it with tons of gain you'll never hear it."

I don't have a Stiletto...and have never played on one (though they sound interesting)...but the 'problem' I am reading about...sounds suspiciously like the 'Infamous' Cross-Over-Distortion! This is truly a form of distortion; but not a 'nice' form of distortion at all! It sounds Very Very Harsh and Cold with 'Piercing Treble Spikes'. It is the result of the power tubes being biased 'Too-Cold'. Mesa is 'supposedly' rather notorious for sending out amps with tubes that are too 'Cold'. And it is a bit of a 'trick' to get tubes in a range that will be 'Warm' in them. They seem to use a value for their 'fixed bias' setting that is designed to prevent (or at least make difficult) using tubes that will be way too hot in their amps. That is good, but... The unfortunate by product of this; is that it is also sometimes a challenge to buy tubes that will be suitably 'warm' in their amps.

That is why the 'Doctor' recommends having a 'bias mod' done to enable you to adjust the bias. That will work...but you will then have to buy a multimeter and (I recommend) a bias probe. You can get off cheaper by just buying the probe and a multimeter...plus you won't need to have your amp modded. For cheapness...just buy a single-probe bias unit. It will work for 6V6, 6L6, EL84 tubes etc. You will get a sheet with it that tells the proper 'bias range' of the various tubes. I bet you will find your tubes are 'way cold'. A high initial expense...but buy 3 'trial sets' of output tubes from a supplier in the middle of the 3 approximate gradings they offer. You can actually but cheaper brands of tubes to do this. Read the 'bias' on all three sets...this will tell you which 'grade or range' you want to buy a 'Premium Set' of tubes in. Also in the meantime...a cheap set of tubes in the 'proper-bias-range' will sound far far better than the most expensive set you can buy if it is too cold!

The reason the 'harsh sound' or 'spike' seems to be masked when playing with more gain or at higher volumes is that the power tubes are actually being driven 'out of cross-over distortion' at those settings. But you shouldn't be limited to playing at those settings! The answer is properly biased tubes.

Best of luck! Regards,Charles

 

[Charles Reeder]

In posting above I meant EL34...NOT...EL84! Duh! Sorry!

 

[abe]

I think that the clip that you hear in low gain settings is related to the stock EL34's. I just switched back to my stock tubes from KT77's becuase I felt like I was missing something from the old tubes. I haven't heard that clip sound since I had the new tubes, but with the EL34's I was occasionally getting it I believe on the Fat Clean and crunch with low gain (below 12:00) channel. I remember hearing it when I first got the amp and I tended to stay away from the settings where I heard it.

I'm stil keeping the 34's in for a while, maybe until I get 34L's, and I'll see if I still have the problem.

The KT77's are fairly cheap through Eurotubes ($16.00 I believe) and are worth it to get something different out of the amp. Because of the additional low end, they work really well for the fat clean voicing

 

[abe]

I think that the clip that you hear in low gain settings is related to the stock EL34's. I just switched back to my stock tubes from KT77's becuase I felt like I was missing something from the old tubes. I haven't heard that clip sound since I had the new tubes, but now with the EL34's back I occasionally get it I believe on the Fat Clean and crunch with low gain (below 12:00) channel. I remember hearing it when I first got the amp and I tended to stay away from the settings where I heard it.

I'm stil keeping the 34's in for a while, maybe until I get 34L's, and I'll see if I still have the problem.

The KT77's are fairly cheap through Eurotubes ($16.00 I believe) and are worth it to get something different out of the amp. Because of the additional low end, they work really well for the fat clean voicing

 

[123thefirst]

The reason the 'harsh sound' or 'spike' seems to be masked when playing with more gain or at higher volumes is that the power tubes are actually being driven 'out of cross-over distortion' at those settings. But you shouldn't be limited to playing at those settings! The answer is properly biased tubes.

There's a very easy, painless way to check whether this theory applies to your amp. Throw in a pair of Yellow Jackets. They're self-biasing and sound very nicely warm. I guess Groove Tubes has a similar product.

 

[Charles Reeder]

The reason the 'harsh sound' or 'spike' seems to be masked when playing with more gain or at higher volumes is that the power tubes are actually being driven 'out of cross-over distortion' at those settings. But you shouldn't be limited to playing at those settings! The answer is properly biased tubes.

There's a very easy, painless way to check whether this theory applies to your amp. Throw in a pair of Yellow Jackets. They're self-biasing and sound very nicely warm. I guess Groove Tubes has a similar product.

The above is a good suggestion. Perhaps you could even borrow a pair (Yellow Jackets with EL84s) and find out without going to any expense.

Charles

 

[progholio]

Greetings:

jamme61 wrote:

"I was able to dial the treble where I wanted it but, i could never get rid of this nasty clipping sound (like when a digital recorder distorts, nasty sound) It was most noticble on low gain crunch settings. If you whacked the strings hard you would hear this nasty digital clipping sound. I went crazy with tubes, speakers, pedals, it was nasty and my band members complained that the amp didn't sound good(which crucshed my ***) I brought over my freind(great guitar player and has a million amps) I didn't say anything and he heard it right away. maybe there was something wrong with my amp, if not then mesa has a problem with these amps. Again if you run it with tons of gain you'll never hear it."

I don't have a Stiletto...and have never played on one (though they sound interesting)...but the 'problem' I am reading about...sounds suspiciously like the 'Infamous' Cross-Over-Distortion! This is truly a form of distortion; but not a 'nice' form of distortion at all! It sounds Very Very Harsh and Cold with 'Piercing Treble Spikes'. It is the result of the power tubes being biased 'Too-Cold'. Mesa is 'supposedly' rather notorious for sending out amps with tubes that are too 'Cold'. And it is a bit of a 'trick' to get tubes in a range that will be 'Warm' in them. They seem to use a value for their 'fixed bias' setting that is designed to prevent (or at least make difficult) using tubes that will be way too hot in their amps. That is good, but... The unfortunate by product of this; is that it is also sometimes a challenge to buy tubes that will be suitably 'warm' in their amps.

That is why the 'Doctor' recommends having a 'bias mod' done to enable you to adjust the bias. That will work...but you will then have to buy a multimeter and (I recommend) a bias probe. You can get off cheaper by just buying the probe and a multimeter...plus you won't need to have your amp modded. For cheapness...just buy a single-probe bias unit. It will work for 6V6, 6L6, EL84 tubes etc. You will get a sheet with it that tells the proper 'bias range' of the various tubes. I bet you will find your tubes are 'way cold'. A high initial expense...but buy 3 'trial sets' of output tubes from a supplier in the middle of the 3 approximate gradings they offer. You can actually but cheaper brands of tubes to do this. Read the 'bias' on all three sets...this will tell you which 'grade or range' you want to buy a 'Premium Set' of tubes in. Also in the meantime...a cheap set of tubes in the 'proper-bias-range' will sound far far better than the most expensive set you can buy if it is too cold!

The reason the 'harsh sound' or 'spike' seems to be masked when playing with more gain or at higher volumes is that the power tubes are actually being driven 'out of cross-over distortion' at those settings. But you shouldn't be limited to playing at those settings! The answer is properly biased tubes.

Best of luck! Regards,Charles

I am a current Ace owner and love the amp but i also feel the compaints on this thread are valid.
I'm on board with your theory of cross-over distortion and the cold tubes. The bias probe/multimeter suggestion is an excellent idea. I know there are a lot of guys who make tube changes and swear the problems are solved. Probably luck of the draw and getting a hotter tube maybe?
I am curious that if this is true, then why wouldn't the factory put the correctly graded tube in the first place?

Regarding the speaker issue i can tell you this, just this morning i unplugged the stock V-30's and powered an old Crate 2-12 cabinet loaded with 20 year old Celestion G-12m-70's and the sound was fantastic, gone was the fizzyness and the overall sound was pure British snarl which is why i bought this amp (gain channel on tite setting for those keeping score).
I have a pair of Eminence Swamp Thangs i am going to install just for grins. I have heard a lot of compaints on V-30's with harsh sounds and i think these just aren't the speakers for me (i feel confident mine are well broken in too).
I will probably end up experimenting with a set of KT77's and a 5751 in v1 just because i like to do these things.

 

[Charlie]

I just put a GT 12ax7C in V1 of my Deuce (stage 1) this weekend and that really smoothed things out a lot. It's a lower gain tube but this amp has plenty of gain so it isn't a problem.

I agree that this is a valid complaint with this amp. It can be too goddamn bright sometimes - especially with a strat. I've never had this problem with my JCM800 - I could use a strat with that amp and it would just sound like a big fat piece of wood slapping you in the face. =) Don't get me wrong... the Stilettos are awesome but the brightness can be annoying as fu#k.

That tube in V1 does help a lot... at least for me.

 

[Dr GearHead]

Since I started this thread I have made a couple of changes to the Stiletto.

I installed JJ gold pins in V1 to V4 and some STR 450 power tubes.

The pre amp tubes made a big difference, it’s more difficult to judge the effect of the power tubes.

I am really happy with the amp now. I think breaking in the speaker has helped a lot along with keeping the presence and treble levels down. I have found on the tite gain I like the presence and treble at around 11 o’clock, on the fluid gain I dial back the presence to about 9 o’clock. I think the presence setting is one of the main culprits for harsh tones. Pretty much all of the other controls are set to 12 o’clock positions.

I would recommend anyone who is finding this amp harsh replaces the V1 and V2 with something a bit warmer / smoother, give the speaker time to break in too and keep an eye on the presence.

Up until a couple of practises ago I was running exclusively in fluid drive which is great for lead work but I am finding I like the roar of the tite gain more. It’s a shame this amp isn’t 3 channel so I could switch between them on the fly.

Overall, a few new pre amp tubes and a bit of time invested in playing with it and I am 100% happy, I love the simplicity (almost plug and play now) but it is still really versatile.

I have bought an orange 2x12 (also with V30’s) to make a ¾ stack for larger venues, it gives me mahogany every time I use it, sweet.

 

[danyeo1]

I'd recommend a 2X12.

ive seen it first hand. thats the solution.

like i said hellatone 60Ls makes my buddy's stilleto ace combo sound insane.

You do realize that the Hellatone 60L is just a Vintage 30 speaker that Avatar just plays loud music through to break it in slightly.

And the Ace Combo comes with a Vintage 30. It's the same speaker. If your friend is using an external cab along with his combo then the amp is just getting some added OOMPH from another cab.

 

[progholio]

You do realize that the Hellatone 60L is just a Vintage 30 speaker that Avatar just plays loud music through to break it in slightly.

And the Ace Combo comes with a Vintage 30. It's the same speaker. If your friend is using an external cab along with his combo then the amp is just getting some added OOMPH from another cab.

Well, all true accept the stock v-30's in the Ace are supposed to be actual Ipswich speakers and the Avatars are chinese units.

An update on my amp-
for grins i threw a set of Eminence Swamp Thangs i had sitting around inside the amp. I was expecting a huge low end thump that these speakers are known for but it was the complete opposite. They made the amp sound even fizzy-er, the stock speakers sound much better.
I have also retubed the amp with all JJ tubes (compliments of Bob @ Eurotubes) consiting of KT-77 power section, ECC81 (12at7 as per Bob's suggestion) for V1 and the rest ECC83's (12ax7). The difference was very noticable, there is a very nice low end kick, there was no harsh top end sizzle. I can now use the full range gain control on the overdrive channel. With the lower gain tube in V1 there is still plenty of gain on tap, the notes have an immediate response with good sustain. Basically what i now have is the meanest plexi/Brit styled combo in in the land. I have since gigged with this amp with excellent results.

 

[danyeo1]

You do realize that the Hellatone 60L is just a Vintage 30 speaker that Avatar just plays loud music through to break it in slightly.

And the Ace Combo comes with a Vintage 30. It's the same speaker. If your friend is using an external cab along with his combo then the amp is just getting some added OOMPH from another cab.

Well, all true accept the stock v-30's in the Ace are supposed to be actual Ipswich speakers and the Avatars are chinese units.

An update on my amp-
for grins i threw a set of Eminence Swamp Thangs i had sitting around inside the amp. I was expecting a huge low end thump that these speakers are known for but it was the complete opposite. They made the amp sound even fizzy-er, the stock speakers sound much better.
I have also retubed the amp with all JJ tubes (compliments of Bob @ Eurotubes) consiting of KT-77 power section, ECC81 (12at7 as per Bob's suggestion) for V1 and the rest ECC83's (12ax7). The difference was very noticable, there is a very nice low end kick, there was no harsh top end sizzle. I can now use the full range gain control on the overdrive channel. With the lower gain tube in V1 there is still plenty of gain on tap, the notes have an immediate response with good sustain. Basically what i now have is the meanest plexi/Brit styled combo in in the land. I have since gigged with this amp with excellent results.

I ordered Hellatone 30's from Avatar, which is just a G12H30 speaker, that was made in England. Not sure about their V30's though. The first thing i do when i get speakers from Avatar is peel off their cheesy label and you find the Celestion label underneath.