Help - I bought a Mark IV

[tunedown]

My Mark IV is really a fantastic amplifier. It produces some of the most beautiful guitar tones I've ever heard. But I'm not sure that any of those tones are the ones that I'm looking for.

I've noticed that I'm not finding some of the things that I love about high-gain heads (and was scared to admit it) in my Mark IV. It gets a little loose, or flubby in the low end. The lower I go the looser it goes. I can get a tight, crisp low end and strong aggressive mutes, but I sacrifice getting a tone that I don't really like because it makes everything "crispy" and solid-state-ish...

I crank the hell out of it and get a lot of gain, but there's something missing. It doesn't...like...shimmer like the resonance and presence you get from a 5150. Or the consistency in distortion top to bottom from a bogner, where the bottom end isn't too tight, but it stays together really well no matter how hard I drive my gain...

I hate to bring up the age old Mark IV vs. Dual Rec argument, but, in all seriousness, did I buy a Mark IV when I should have bought a Dual Rec?

Did I zig when I should have zagged?

Please help me out guys, I just got this head and I don't want to get attached if it's ultimately not going to do what I really want.

 

[djw]

I can't help you with this, but I just want to compliment you on your descriptive skill with tone. I like a guy who can talk about it with that much depth and specificity.

I guess I am curious, too: why did you get the MkIV? Did you not have a chance to try it out first? Only at low volumes?

Buyer's freakout is a drag, I know. I don't know if this is your first Mesa or not, but they can be famously challenging to get the specific thing you're looking for, particularly the Mark series (my old MkIII was definitely that way). Sometimes I think it's an old by-product of their original claim to fame, which seemed to be that Boogies could do, like, anything.

If you can afford to give it a little time, do it. But your ear might be correct. A lot of what you're describing sounds like inherent gain character, which is difficult to fake. You might try other speaker configs and such. But you might be talking about apples and oranges.

One other thing, too, is even some of the sound samples you hear out there can be a little misleading due to compression and other factors in the recording. If you know what you're after because you've played it and felt it, you should get that.

Good luck.

 

[sixtonoize]

You've got to give it a few months before you make up your mind.

Seriously.

Boogies can be THAT hard to tweak. I had my F-100 for a few months, and wasn't impressed at all, tried to sell it, eventually figured the whole thing out, and now i love it. I'm glad that I tried to sell it when nobody was buying amps (right after Christmas).

Mesas aren't like Marshalls. You can't just set everything at noon and expect it to sound perfect. The down side is that it takes time to find your tone. The up side is that you can find a MILLION different amazing tones, if you put in the time.

 

[Barry]

I think alot of your answers may lie with the EQ . Why not call mesa support at 707 778 6565 . Mon. - Thurs.

 

[tunedown]

I can't help you with this, but I just want to compliment you on your descriptive skill with tone. I like a guy who can talk about it with that much depth and specificity.

I guess I am curious, too: why did you get the MkIV? Did you not have a chance to try it out first? Only at low volumes?

Yes and yes. I demo'd it for about 30 minutes and low-medium volumes, but I demo'd it through an orange, open-back 2x12, so the complaints I have about the low end and mutes had to be over looked because I couldn't drive that cab too hard before it bottomed out. Those speakers couldn't take much so in my head I went "well, once I get it on a 4x12 I'll be ok. So there's strike one.

Buyer's freakout is a drag, I know. I don't know if this is your first Mesa or not, but they can be famously challenging to get the specific thing you're looking for, particularly the Mark series (my old MkIII was definitely that way). Sometimes I think it's an old by-product of their original claim to fame, which seemed to be that Boogies could do, like, anything.

Sometimes I think this could be a tail of "Jack of all trades – Master of none". although, these amps could be a master of everything, you just gotta figure out the right combination

If you know what you're after because you've played it and felt it, you should get that.

I converted from a modified 100w JCM 800 2210, so for what I'm looking for in the high-gain world, I did "trade up". I'm closer. I'm also not a solo musician though. I share the stage with a 5150-II that just screams and has gain for days and days. The Mark IV is smoother and warmer (of course) and has beautiful clean tones. (Very un-colored, and clear. I feel like I can get as much gain as I want and, more importantly, I can take out as much gain as I DON'T want.)

And using the LEAD GAIN, DRIVE, and PRESENCE knobs (pulled out) I can get as much gain and "other gain" (like what might be considered noise and fuzz harmonics and higher treble frequencies and such) but I do feel like I'm struggling to get it to really open up.

I'll give it a little time. Keep messing with it and find the balance I'm looking for. I have a friend who's been playing metal through Mark IVs for 7 years or more so I'm going to take it to him on Saturday and see if he can lend me some knowledge and experience.

Thank you guys for your advice. If you have anymore, I'd love to hear it. I could use all the input I can get. I'm new to Mesa/Boogie amps, but I've tried out all manner of "difficult to dial-in" amps and I've learned that knowledge is king.

 

[sixtonoize]

I have an F-100, which has a preamp that's structured like the Mark series.

You see, in Marshalls, all of the EQ comes after the gain, whereas in the Mark series, the tone stack is pre-gain, and the Graphic EQ is post gain. So, effectively, the tone stack doesn't shape your overall EQ, but more the "feel" of your guitar, and the Graphic EQ takes care of the overall sound balance of the amp.

Another thing to remember is that a Marshall-style tone stack naturally cuts a fair amount of mids out of your sound, right around the 700-hz range. If you look at a frequency plot, it looks strikingly similar to the familiar "V-shape" curve that (almost) everyone uses (which is the same as the Contour channel of the F-series).

The setting that finally made me like my F-100 ended up being COMPLETELY different than any Marshall I've played, but it all came together in the end.

I really like the sound that I get when I turn my Mids all the way up, and the Treble and Bass all the way down, and use the Contour channel/V-shape EQ. Cranking the mids in the tone stack cuts out the unnecessary frequencies that make gain muddy and flabby, and the V-shape EQ evens out the effect of the excessive mids in the tone stack. IMO, adding any bass in the tone stack only makes your tone farty. It sounds great on leads (makes them super smooth), but bass in the preamp sucks for tight, aggressive rhythm work.

 

[clutch71]

From what you are describing this is the exact opposite of what has been described of the Mark IV. I don't recall if you mentioned if this was a new or used purchase. If used new tubes may be in th near future. Platypus on this board has been a Mark IV user for years and might have some valuable info. Drop him a PM.

Two other observations...The Marshall 1960a cab is loaded with G-12T75 speakers. You may have liked them with the JCM 800 but might not be best suited for the Mark IV. A lot of guys run and prefer the V30 loaded cabs.

Taking it up to a friend that has used one is definetely going to be a plus. He should be able to lend his tweaking guidance to your tone pallete. After 7 years he is going to have a good refernce and suggestions on tubes and if your lucky may have an assortment that you can try out.

Good luck

 

[Platypus]

My Mark IV is really a fantastic amplifier. It produces some of the most beautiful guitar tones I've ever heard. But I'm not sure that any of those tones are the ones that I'm looking for.

I've noticed that I'm not finding some of the things that I love about high-gain heads (and was scared to admit it) in my Mark IV. It gets a little loose, or flubby in the low end. The lower I go the looser it goes. I can get a tight, crisp low end and strong aggressive mutes, but I sacrifice getting a tone that I don't really like because it makes everything "crispy" and solid-state-ish...

I crank the hell out of it and get a lot of gain, but there's something missing. It doesn't...like...shimmer like the resonance and presence you get from a 5150. Or the consistency in distortion top to bottom from a bogner, where the bottom end isn't too tight, but it stays together really well no matter how hard I drive my gain...


I hate to bring up the age old Mark IV vs. Dual Rec argument, but, in all seriousness, did I buy a Mark IV when I should have bought a Dual Rec?

Did I zig when I should have zagged?

Please help me out guys, I just got this head and I don't want to get attached if it's ultimately not going to do what I really want.

Hi tunedown, welcome to the BB.

Please take this post as helpful albeit maybe a bit of tough love
It also has my opinion on the matter so feel free to disagree.

Based on reading your post, it would seem that what you are describing is actually the opposite complaint of the Mark series; most say it's too tight and not loose enough for the style of music they are after.

There are a few very important factors you need to learn when using the Mark IV. Number one, forget what you know about tuning every other amplifier you've ever owned. There is a very definite learning curve with this amplifier.

The very first thing I would do is read the owners manual. I hate reading manuals and I typically love to dive into the amp and make it my own. This simply is not possible with the Mark IV until you understand how the controls interface with each other. The manual does a fantastic job of explaining the controls and how they interact with each other. After you read it, read it again.

After that, here are some things to keep in mind:

Never take your bass control above 3. Doing so will cause flubby/farty bass and loss of definition.

Start without using the GEQ at all. Get your tone to sound good without it.

Start with Tweed, Class A, Harmonics, Triode.. this will give you the heaviest tone at the lowest volume, it is also more loose and less rigid than using full power for example. It will have a spongy feel to the notes..

The Mark is very midheavy, don't be afraid to use radical settings on the GEQ.

Lastly, the reality is that you will get frustrated at first. Do not feel like you made the wrong decision until you've spent a significant amount of time with the amplifier. I'm to the point now after using mine that I can dial in any tone I want and it will sound good.. but it is VERY easy to make the amp sound bad if you're not setting the controls right. Try not to feel buyer's remorse, etc until you've given the amp a fair shake. There are so many options and toggles that need to be set. It is not a straight forward setup from the beginning, that kind of control only comes from learning how it works.

Hope this helps a bit, I can provide some settings for you to try out if you're still stuck after reading the manual.

 

[tunedown]

The very first thing I would do is read the owners manual. I hate reading manuals and I typically love to dive into the amp and make it my own. This simply is not possible with the Mark IV until you understand how the controls interface with each other. The manual does a fantastic job of explaining the controls and how they interact with each other. After you read it, read it again.

After that, here are some things to keep in mind:

Never take your bass control above 3. Doing so will cause flubby/farty bass and loss of definition.

Start without using the GEQ at all. Get your tone to sound good without it.

Ok. Thank You.

I read the manual as I was dialing it in yesterday. You're right, the manual really has a great way of explaining all of the different settings and adjustments and how they interact. I even tried the example setting of "Agro" to get me started.

I hear what you're saying about the typical complaint being that this amp is too tight or sharp. I agree with that sentiment, except when dealing with the low end. My experience was that my low mutes, or chugs, or whatever are (no matter what setting I tried) as you described above "flubby/farty bass and loss of definition". I kept my bass control between 1 and 3 the entire night. EQ on...EQ off...EQ back on... pull this...ok don't pull that, pull this one...ok, pull that one and set it to 8...but now the gains gotta come down a little...what does that one do again...no no, turn it back up...ugh

Start with Tweed, Class A, Harmonics, Triode.. this will give you the heaviest tone at the lowest volume, it is also more loose and less rigid than using full power for example. It will have a spongy feel to the notes..[\quote]
I have tried those settings before and found that they weren't loud enough or full enough to keep up with my 5150-II counterpart, but I won't nay-say. I will try those settings again tomorrow and I'll be patient and I'll keep at it.

I won't be playing this head in my living room very often. This will be a practice and live amp only, so I need a "big-bodied" and "full" of a sound as possible. If I can get it sounding as good as you guys think I can, then I'll definitely be recording with it too.

The Mark is very midheavy, don't be afraid to use radical settings on the GEQ.

Lastly, the reality is that you will get frustrated at first. Do not feel like you made the wrong decision until you've spent a significant amount of time with the amplifier. I'm to the point now after using mine that I can dial in any tone I want and it will sound good.. but it is VERY easy to make the amp sound bad if you're not setting the controls right. Try not to feel buyer's remorse, etc until you've given the amp a fair shake. There are so many options and toggles that need to be set. It is not a straight forward setup from the beginning, that kind of control only comes from learning how it works.

Hope this helps a bit, I can provide some settings for you to try out if you're still stuck after reading the manual.

I would love some example settings from some people who've been using this thing for long enough to have a couple sets of "my favourite settings" that you use.

I can't thank you guys enough for your help. I know you've all been through this too and I appreciate your experience.

Honestly, I think this is the most helpful group of Forum members I've ever been in contact with.

JP

 

[Platypus]

This is the EQ I find most favorable with my Mark IV

I will get you the numbers on my dials this evening when I can jot them down.

Based on what you said I would try the Pentode/Full power section (though I still think Tweed is more up your alley...) and wipe out a bit of the presence control. Play with pulling/pushing that one to see which one smooths it out for you.

What kind of cabinet are you using?
Guitar?
How old are the tubes?

Where is your channel volume versus master volume? Even with Tweed/Class A my amp is loud enough for an arena!

I use Tweed/Simul/Triode/Harmonics as my base tone, pull everything fat/bright and run my gain around 7-8.

 

[tunedown]

This is the EQ I find most favorable with my Mark IV

I will get you the numbers on my dials this evening when I can jot them down.

Based on what you said I would try the Pentode/Full power section and wipe out a bit of the presence control. Play with pulling/pushing that one to see which one smooths it out for you.

What kind of cabinet are you using?
Guitar?
How old are the tubes?

Where is your channel volume versus master volume? Even with Tweed/Class A my amp is loud enough for an arena!

I am using a 1960A 4x12 at 4 ohms. I am working on getting a new cab or filling a 13 ply straight cab with V30s. The fact that this amp does not have a 16 ohm output is a little annoying for me.

I play a '92 Les Paul Studio with a Seymour Duncan Jeff Beck in the bridge and the stock pickup in the neck.

The tubes are all new. It was re-tubed (literally) the day before I bought it (which was last Friday) so the tubes are a week old?

My channel vol was at 4? and my master vol was at 3? approximately. I agree that the Volume was loud enough but IMO the fullness and body of that volume differs from Class A to Simul, and from Power to Tweed. That may be a personal distinction, so I'll re-try simul and tweed when I get my hands on it again tomorrow.

 

[Shep]

My Mark IV is really a fantastic amplifier. It produces some of the most beautiful guitar tones I've ever heard. But I'm not sure that any of those tones are the ones that I'm looking for.

I've noticed that I'm not finding some of the things that I love about high-gain heads (and was scared to admit it) in my Mark IV. It gets a little loose, or flubby in the low end. The lower I go the looser it goes. I can get a tight, crisp low end and strong aggressive mutes, but I sacrifice getting a tone that I don't really like because it makes everything "crispy" and solid-state-ish...

I crank the hell out of it and get a lot of gain, but there's something missing. It doesn't...like...shimmer like the resonance and presence you get from a 5150. Or the consistency in distortion top to bottom from a bogner, where the bottom end isn't too tight, but it stays together really well no matter how hard I drive my gain...


I hate to bring up the age old Mark IV vs. Dual Rec argument, but, in all seriousness, did I buy a Mark IV when I should have bought a Dual Rec?

Did I zig when I should have zagged?

Please help me out guys, I just got this head and I don't want to get attached if it's ultimately not going to do what I really want.

Hi tunedown, welcome to the BB.

Please take this post as helpful albeit maybe a bit of tough love
It also has my opinion on the matter so feel free to disagree.

Based on reading your post, it would seem that what you are describing is actually the opposite complaint of the Mark series; most say it's too tight and not loose enough for the style of music they are after.

There are a few very important factors you need to learn when using the Mark IV. Number one, forget what you know about tuning every other amplifier you've ever owned. There is a very definite learning curve with this amplifier.

The very first thing I would do is read the owners manual. I hate reading manuals and I typically love to dive into the amp and make it my own. This simply is not possible with the Mark IV until you understand how the controls interface with each other. The manual does a fantastic job of explaining the controls and how they interact with each other. After you read it, read it again.

After that, here are some things to keep in mind:

Never take your bass control above 3. Doing so will cause flubby/farty bass and loss of definition.

Start without using the GEQ at all. Get your tone to sound good without it.

Start with Tweed, Class A, Harmonics, Triode.. this will give you the heaviest tone at the lowest volume, it is also more loose and less rigid than using full power for example. It will have a spongy feel to the notes..

The Mark is very midheavy, don't be afraid to use radical settings on the GEQ.

Lastly, the reality is that you will get frustrated at first. Do not feel like you made the wrong decision until you've spent a significant amount of time with the amplifier. I'm to the point now after using mine that I can dial in any tone I want and it will sound good.. but it is VERY easy to make the amp sound bad if you're not setting the controls right. Try not to feel buyer's remorse, etc until you've given the amp a fair shake. There are so many options and toggles that need to be set. It is not a straight forward setup from the beginning, that kind of control only comes from learning how it works.

Hope this helps a bit, I can provide some settings for you to try out if you're still stuck after reading the manual.

Agree, Bass at 2 on mine.. scoop the mid and turn it on to pentode..full power.. that will be tighter than anything you have ever heard,,

 

[chris_EIT]

Hey dude, try these setting

Lead Gain Pulled 7.8
Lead Treble 7.3
Lead Bass 2.5
Lead Mids 4.5
Lead Drive Pulled 7.3
Prescence 3.5 Pushed
Channel Master 3.5
Output 3

Simul-class, Pentode, Tweed

G-EQ, First Slider Just below the top line, Secon slider between middle and bottem line, Third slider just above bottem line, Fourth slider on middle line, Fifth slider just above middle line!

Gets a really good trvium ascendencey tone, like a 5150 but tighter and nicer

 

[Platypus]

Here are mine:

R1
Gain: 7
Treble: 5
Bass: 2
Mid: 6
Pres: 4
Vol: 7

R2
Gain: 8 (pulled)
Treble: 8.5
Bass: 2
Mid: 6
Pres: 7 (pulled)
Vol: 3

Lead
Gain: 8 (pulled)
Treble: 8.5
Bass: 2.5
Mid: 4.5
Drive: 8
Pres: 7 (pulled)
Vol: 3

Master: 2

Harmonics / Tweed / Simul / Triode

good luck

 

[tunedown]

Hey dude, try these setting

Lead Gain Pulled 7.8
Lead Treble 7.3
Lead Bass 2.5
Lead Mids 4.5
Lead Drive Pulled 7.3
Prescence 3.5 Pushed
Channel Master 3.5
Output 3

Simul-class, Pentode, Tweed

G-EQ, First Slider Just below the top line, Secon slider between middle and bottem line, Third slider just above bottem line, Fourth slider on middle line, Fifth slider just above middle line!

Gets a really good trvium ascendencey tone, like a 5150 but tighter and nicer

That's almost exactly what my last set of settings were before I called it a night. Interesting...

Lead Gain Pulled 8.5
Lead Treble 0
Lead Bass 2
Lead Mids 3
Lead Drive Pulled 7
Prescence 3.5 Pushed
Channel Master 4
Output 3

Harmonics / Full / Simul / Pentode

That's the best I can remember.

You see, in Marshalls, all of the EQ comes after the gain, whereas in the Mark series, the tone stack is pre-gain, and the Graphic EQ is post gain. So, effectively, the tone stack doesn't shape your overall EQ, but more the "feel" of your guitar, and the Graphic EQ takes care of the overall sound balance of the amp.

Another thing to remember is that a Marshall-style tone stack naturally cuts a fair amount of mids out of your sound, right around the 700-hz range. If you look at a frequency plot, it looks strikingly similar to the familiar "V-shape" curve that (almost) everyone uses (which is the same as the Contour channel of the F-series).

I'm going to try working the EQ more and using less adjustment from my tone stack and see where that gets me. I think taking a little more bass out of my tone stack and putting it in my EQ may go a longer way then I initially thought. (especially with the cab I'm running and the low notes I tune to).

 

[tunedown]

Ok guys. I played last night and I'm 50% better then I was before, so we're making progress.

I've learned a few new things about the tone stack / GEQ balance and I've learned some new things about how TIGHT this head is when you really get its gain going.

I've found that once I get the low end together and my mutes good and tight the rest of my tones are very crisp and almost too tight, so now I'm just playing that balance.

Here's where my knobs ended up last night:

Lead Gain Pulled 7.8
Lead Treble 4
Lead Bass 1.5
Lead Mids 4.5
Lead Drive Pulled 7
Presence 8 Pushed (I like that a pushed presence effects all freq)
Channel Master 4
Output 3

Harmonics / Full-Power / Simul / Triode (I went to triode to loosen it up a bit)

Oh, and I took your guys' recommendations and paid more attention to my mids and took a lot of bass out in my tone stack and I worked the EQ to pull the mids back out and bring lower frequencies back up. I'm pretty close, but It's still too tight for me, so I'm going to fiddle and start thinking cabs and speakers.

Thanks again guys.

Cheers.

 

[Platypus]

Ok guys. I played last night and I'm 50% better then I was before, so we're making progress.

I've learned a few new things about the tone stack / GEQ balance and I've learned some new things about how TIGHT this head is when you really get its gain going.

I've found that once I get the low end together and my mutes good and tight the rest of my tones are very crisp and almost too tight, so now I'm just playing that balance.

Here's where my knobs ended up last night:

Lead Gain Pulled 7.8
Lead Treble 4
Lead Bass 1.5
Lead Mids 4.5
Lead Drive Pulled 7
Presence 8 Pushed (I like that a pushed presence effects all freq)
Channel Master 4
Output 3

Harmonics / Full-Power / Simul / Triode (I went to triode to loosen it up a bit)

Oh, and I took your guys' recommendations and paid more attention to my mids and took a lot of bass out in my tone stack and I worked the EQ to pull the mids back out and bring lower frequencies back up. I'm pretty close, but It's still too tight for me, so I'm going to fiddle and start thinking cabs and speakers.

Thanks again guys.

Cheers.

Glad you're getting on better with it now

Tweed mode will help loosen it up but it might not be full enough for you as you said earlier. Might be worth trying tweed and working the EQ to fill it out a bit more, tweed is def more loose.

Adding a touch of reverb helps too

 

[tunedown]

Adding a touch of reverb helps too

Now why didn't I think of that? Just a hair of adjustment would probably go a long way wouldn't it?

It's a short head so I sometimes forget because the knob is on the back...

Ok, more stuff to try.

Cheers.

 

[t0aj15]

One thing that I found helped a lot particularly in the low end was to bypass the internal GEQ in favor of an external ten band GEQ in the loop. I use an MXR M-108 ten band GEQ that solved all my low end flub problems and gives great low end thump and better overall control then the internal 5 band GEQ.

 

[sricabla]

Is the amp new? Because of our eternal quest for the tone we want sometimes, it's just a matter of breaking in the speaker for a week or two,but even then it might be just changing speakers of your liking.For me I had the same disappointment with my Rectoverb combo at first, but I tried 2 different speaker models(expensive)"BUT" I finally found my tone with
a 40 Watt Tone Tubby in my 50 Watt combo.Nice early breakup and really nice creamy hi gain tone, perfect for me.I would say it took me about 6 months and 2 speaker changes.
Now I got it, and now I can concentrate on making music.
Remember to break in those speakers!