Guitar Tech Question/Help Needed?

[#2121313]

I recently bought an American made Jackson King V (KV2T - http://www.jacksonguitars.com/products/specSheet.php?product=2803041803). When I bought the guitar I had the guitar tech from the store I bought it from put new strings on. The stock strings were 10-46 and I had him put 11-48's on. The guitar came equipped with a set of Sperzel Trim Lock tuners. I have had nothing but trouble with keeping this thing in tune.

I have had it exactly one week, the first day or two I was so excited to have it and play it I didn't even bother manually stretching the strings, so I figured the reason it was going out of tune was due to the strings being so new/unstretched.

A day or two after I got it had played for a while I then manually stretched out the strings and tuned it to pitch (Standard E). As I continued to play it the tuning has progressively gotten worse to the point that I'm having to tune it every 5-10 min, it completely sucks and frustrates me to no end.

I usually find the tuning to go flat, sometimes a string will go flat a quarter step with little to no use of the string in a matter of a minute or so. I have also seen the odd string go sharp which I find weird.

I am hesitant in bringing the guitar back to the same tech as I have no confidence in his abilities, he sometimes seems to over look things, I often bring my guitars back to him several times to have one thing done.

The guitar was ordered from California for me, so it has only been here (Toronto) for about a week, so I know temperature may be a bit of a factor. Just thought I'd try and include as much info as possible.

I now try and do my own work on guitars and I am decent, not the fastest, but I take my time and am pretty good, I work on my buddy's guitars too and they are all pretty good. Problem with me, and reason why I had him put the new set of strings on is because I haven't developed an eye for the neck yet and refrain from doing much neck adjustments.

I was wondering if there were any techs on this board who may be able to give their input on what the problem may be? I'm dying to get this thing working as it should and it's driving me nuts. To be honest, I'd more than happy to bring my guitar to a local tech and pay him if the problem would be corrected for good - even though I shouldn't have to, I would in a heart beat!

Please give me some technical advise if there are any techs that are familiar with the Sperzel Trim Locks?

Let me know if you require any additional info and I will add it right away, I'm online for the rest of day pretty much...


Thanks.

 

[mikebu]

Try lubricating the nut with some pencil graphite or some guitar nut lubrication stuff. I would doubt the problem is your tuners.

If it was me I would take it into local guitar tech and have them do a initial setup. The last 2 guitars I have bought my local guy has told me the nut was cut too high and they fixed it and set the action and intonation.

My son's guitar a PRE SE Allender had tuning issues like this. I had the non-locking tuners replaced with locking Grovers and the nut looked at as strings were clicking when tuning and it stays in tune now.

Mike

 

[#2121313]

Thanks for the advise, I was actually thinking of lubing the nut & saddle as well. The thing that gets me is the strings would go out a quarter step, that seems like maybe more than friction in the nut area...

I would also like to mention, the tech did do an initial set up on the guitar for me when I bought it, same time as the strings were put on, he did mention that he did adjust the neck if that helps/matters...

Still unsure what to do, I will definitely lube it up in the mean time. I have also heard that Sperzel locking tuners are tricky if the locking screw was unscrewed too much during string installation they could cause a problem with the locking mechanism/the pin that pushes up against the string. As a result would cause this string to slip and fall out of tune.

Anyone with tech experience with Sperzels know about this?

 

[elvis]

If the strings are sticking in the nut or saddles, they will tend to go sharp, not flat.

I would bet that the guitar shipped from the factory with .009, and was then moved to 0.010 without adjustment, and maybe you got it shortly thereafter. The neck could still be settling, but I would bet that you need to adjust the truss rod. The tension on 0.011 is WAY more than 0.010.

You will probably want to have the nut filed as well to make room for the extra diameter on the strings. I play 0.010 and 0.011, and usually find that most guitars will accommodate 0.010, but no larger.

Finally, make sure you always tune UP to pitch - never tune down. Tuning down adds a bit of slack in the string between the nut and tuners, and the strings will tend to go flat on you immediately. I generally tune down below pitch, snap the string to release any tension imbalance, and then tune up to pitch.

 

[#2121313]

Yeah that's what I'm talking about when I say "I have no confidence in his abilities...".

I specifically had them do the initial setup and put the heavier gauge strings on as appose to me doing it, strictly for warranty purposes, as I knew an adjustment was needed and I would rather them do it in case of any problems down the road, I didn't want any un-necessary blame pointing my way...

But anyway, yeah now that I look at the nut, the E, A & D strings are sitting on top of the grooves, they may be slightly inside the groove but for the most part are sitting on top, the G is in there but appears tight, the B & High E are the only two that look like they have sufficient room inside the groove of the nut.

I was leaning towards the Sperzels because for one they are "new" to me, but also I spoke with a tech at Sperzel and he says that if the nut that locks the string to the inside of the post/peg (if that's the right terminology), so if this nut is backed out too far when re-stringing, could cause the Trim Lock function of the Sperzels to not function. As per his direction, in fact if this were to happen the nut needs to replaced and cannot be used again - this doesn't make sense to me from a logical/mechanical perspective. But the tech took my info down and offered to send me 6 new nuts and 6 pins he is confident that if I replace them that the Sperzels would then be guaranteed to operate 100%. I can see the tech who worked on my guitar easily back that string out too far...

Maybe faulty Sperzel's (due to the tech) = string slippage which explains the tuning to go flat, and...

Nut adjustment needed due to the heavier gauge strings = strings getting snagged in the nut which covers why the tuning would go sharp...

So I have made progress, I would still love to have some better explain the Sperzels to me, why this nut cannot be used if backed out too far? In fact there is a caption on Sperzel's web page warning against this, I just don't know why?

I want to get a clear understanding of how these tuners operate before I attempt to replace the nuts & pins of each tuner.

I am tempted to pick up a pack of Sperzel Solid Pro's which are they're top of the line standard tuners that requires strings to be wound around each post.

The irony of this whole thing is, I absolutely love the look of the King V with the old style pointed headstock & shark fin inlays, nut more so, I prefer fixed bridge, why? ONLY because I hate fussing with tremolo's and floyd's to keep em in tune, absolutely hate it lol, the KV2T which I bought is as close as I could get to my preference without going with a custom shop $4500 guitar, looks like I could have had the KV2 with the headstock & inlay considering I am having the same **** tuning problems! lol

No but, really I gotta get this fixed and then I'll be set!

Thinks for the tips guys, I'm still interested in hearing some insight into these Sperzels as I mentioned above?

 

[pokerrules47]

The last person I would get to setup a guitar is the guy that sold it to me. No matter how good their techs are. Typically, guitar shops offer free setups when you purchase a guitar. This is all fine and dandy but it's pretty useless to get it setup before you've really played the instrument for any length of time.

That being said, what do you do? Well for starters, I would find a decent guitar tech, probably independent, or possibly from a used guitar shop. There are a couple of reasons for this. One, they are usually cheaper than the bigger shops, but they often do really good work. The techs in the bigger shops are usually kids, just learning the trade, they get paid peanuts, and have to churn out a lot of guitars every week. They usually don't have the skill or the time to properly setup a guitar.

The guys in the smaller shops are usually the ones that got sick of working at the bigger shops and went on their own, or to a used place where they can do their thing and properly setup guitars. They are also easier to get to know because they last longer than 3 months in the tech dept. You can develop a relationship with them and they will treat you right.

Secondly, you really need to take any new (or even new to you) instruments home and play them for a while. Again, there are a couple of reasons for this. The biggest reason, and possibly why you are experiencing your issue, is that it takes time for a guitar to acclimatize to your environment. The neck will shift due to changes in temperature and humidity over time. When a guitar sits on a hangar, or in a box or case for a long time, as soon as you take it out, it will change. The second reason is because you really don't know what you want changed with the guitar until you've played it for a good while. I usually take my guitars home, then play them for a month before taking them to the tech for setup.

I find that a lot of the thinner necked guitars suffer from drastic swings in the neck at any given time. I guess it depends a lot on the wood used to build the neck. I know guys with jackson and Ibanez guitars that refuse to put them on a lean stand. They always hang them.

I know my post doesn't really address your problem, but I hope it gives you some insight and helps you make some good decisions about this, and any other new guitars you get. Don't think your guitar is a lemon or anything. Just get it looked at, independently, and see what the tech thinks.

 

[elvis]

I had locking tuners on a couple of G&L guitars that I use 0.011 strings on. They worked great, but you could tell for the low E that it was close to the limit of string diameter, because if I wasn't really gentle with the knob, I could make it slip while tightening. I think what the guy at Sperzel tried to tell you is that you need a certain amount of the thread to be used, or you will not get enough force, and you could strip the locking mechanism in the post. Maybe they have a taller post that allows for larger diameter strings???

It should only matter on the low E.

Reading that your strings are not sitting properly in the nut, I think that you need to get that fixed first. It is probably causing your problem. Plus the action will improve a LOT.

The guitar tech was clearly terrible, because nobody who cares about guitars would have let that go. If he's a Jackson-approved tech, I'd let them know about this.

 

[MrMarkIII]

Forget the tuners. It's not the tuners. It's the nut. Get a new nut fitted for the heavier gauge strings you're using.

 

[#2121313]

The last person I would get to setup a guitar is the guy that sold it to me. No matter how good their techs are. Typically, guitar shops offer free setups when you purchase a guitar. This is all fine and dandy but it's pretty useless to get it setup before you've really played the instrument for any length of time.

That being said, what do you do? Well for starters, I would find a decent guitar tech, probably independent, or possibly from a used guitar shop. There are a couple of reasons for this. One, they are usually cheaper than the bigger shops, but they often do really good work. The techs in the bigger shops are usually kids, just learning the trade, they get paid peanuts, and have to churn out a lot of guitars every week. They usually don't have the skill or the time to properly setup a guitar.

The guys in the smaller shops are usually the ones that got sick of working at the bigger shops and went on their own, or to a used place where they can do their thing and properly setup guitars. They are also easier to get to know because they last longer than 3 months in the tech dept. You can develop a relationship with them and they will treat you right.

Secondly, you really need to take any new (or even new to you) instruments home and play them for a while. Again, there are a couple of reasons for this. The biggest reason, and possibly why you are experiencing your issue, is that it takes time for a guitar to acclimatize to your environment. The neck will shift due to changes in temperature and humidity over time. When a guitar sits on a hangar, or in a box or case for a long time, as soon as you take it out, it will change. The second reason is because you really don't know what you want changed with the guitar until you've played it for a good while. I usually take my guitars home, then play them for a month before taking them to the tech for setup.

I find that a lot of the thinner necked guitars suffer from drastic swings in the neck at any given time. I guess it depends a lot on the wood used to build the neck. I know guys with jackson and Ibanez guitars that refuse to put them on a lean stand. They always hang them.

I know my post doesn't really address your problem, but I hope it gives you some insight and helps you make some good decisions about this, and any other new guitars you get. Don't think your guitar is a lemon or anything. Just get it looked at, independently, and see what the tech thinks.

Thanks for your input, you make alot of sense, I am aware of many of the points you mentioned and I would have to agree with you. In fact, I have been looking for a local guitar tech for some time...I am out in the Toronto area, if any tech here happens to be around - long shot I know. I'm gonna poke around and craiglist, I have seen guys post Guitar Tech services before...Just gotta keep my out.

The nut definitely needs to be addressed...MrMarkIII

 

[rocksalt7]

+2 on what MrMark said....after reading all of your posts, I'd bet that it is the nut giving you the problem. You'd be really surprised at how a VERY small adjustment in the width of the nut grooves can make a HUGE diffrerence in the tuning stability. I have fixed so many of my buddies axes by just working the nut it's not even funny. There are some really easy and inexpensive ways to do this too. PM me or ask me here if you need some help...you'll be set up in no time. :mrgreen:

 

[bick65]

As a builder and repaire man I hate these things but if your patient you will get it .

1) try .009 strings if the problem goes away open the slots in the nut

2)I dont think its tunners they are very well made

3)You should always use lube on nut with this system

4)Dont play with trussrod if it srips or breaks your screwed let someone like me turn it unless you good with them.

5) there are a lot of good advice in this tread just do one thing at a time so you no what worked .

6)Then tell us :wink: we can all learn together

From my guitar shop good luck

bick

 

[#2121313]

Thanks Bick!

Yes I would agree, a ton of good info here...I have since had a local (reputable!) tech take a look and he adjusted the nut, it was very obvious that the nut slots needed to be adjusted to fit the 11's. I am still having some tuning issues, very slight, not nearly as bad. I believe that it's now due to the climate as the guitar was in California since being built and has only been out here (Toronto) for bout 10 days. I am going to wait it out a bit and allow the guitar to naturally adjust and then take it to see the same tech in a months time for another check up/tune up (if needed).

I'm hoping that things will be fine then.

BTW, I had the tech check the neck, bridge and the whole guitar and everything looks good he says.

Thanks everyone for your input, I will be in touch once I have things in order and the tuning is stabilized.

 

[rocksalt7]

GREAT!!!...Sounds like you're on your way to trouble free jammin'!!
Good Luck and keep us informed> :mrgreen:

 

[#2121313]

Cool will do thanks!