fuzzy sound

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jnelson.gf

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All right here is the deal, I have always wanted a dual rect and finally purchased one off of ebay. Here is my question, i have a couple of les pauls and one has alnico II seymour duncans in it. I always thought the mesa was crisp even in channel 2 and 3 but if i go over 12 oclock on gain the distortion gets very fuzzy sounding?????? nothing in front of amp just guitar. Is this the normal sound for a mesa?
 
Welcome to The Board. Congrats on your first Rectifier.

How about more info? What are your amp settings (ch, mode, eq, power etc). What type of cab/speaker are you using? How loud were you playing?

Rectos can be fuzzy/buzzy at low volumes.

Do you have an owners manual? If not go download it from MesaBoogie.com

It will explain all the features of the amp as well as how the controls react/interact with each other. There are also some sample setting that are worth trying.

Dom
 
I am playing at low levels ch2 is presence 9 oclock master 9 gain 1 oclock bass 11 oclock mid 11 oclock treb 11:30
ch3 is pre 9:30 mast 10:00 gain 12:00 bass 5:00 treb 12:00
master volume about 9 o clock
playing through marshall 1960 cab 4x12 the wife is already bitchin cause it is too loud can you maybe give me some settings to play with I did download manual from mesa web page. so you are saying i need to play louder?
 
Rectos are very fuzzy at low levels. That is the nature of the complex preamp section. For starters, turn down the presence to somewhere around 9 - 11. Take the gain and turn it to around 1. Put your mids anywhere from between 8 - 11, based on your own tastes. Put your bass to noon, but push it up higher if you like (don't go past 1 though). Set treble to taste, anywhere from 1 - 3. Set your output and master volume accordingly. Some people like to push them equally, while some like to keep the channel master lower, while pushing the output to an acceptable volume level.

Good luck. These settings should help you. Also, at low volumes I don't use spongy or tube rectification. You don't get the same brown out feel at lower volumes using this rectification and variac setting. This will give you some more immediacy and tightness in your low volume gain attack.
 
Send your wife shopping or give her some ear plugs.

I hate to break it to you, but you just bought yourself a professional gigging amp, not a bedroom practice amp. The thing likes to be "cranked". Of course, "cranked" doesn't mean dimed, but it is still LOUD. Even at 1/10th the power, which is really how loud most people use them, it will rattle your windows and shatter your china. It also kills small animals!!
To deal with this frustration, I carry a case with me with a plethora of Tube options and I also have 3 different speaker enclosures, depending on what the particular situation calls for.

The sweet spot on this amp is with the master / volume between 9:30 to 11:00. My wife thinks my Dual is loud with a pair of yellow jackets (15 - 20 watts) in it running only one speaker with the volume almost off. If you want it to give that RECTO tone, it gets beyond loud into the region of "deafening", "thunderous", and "a force of nature" once you get the amp turned up. Find a drummer and a bassist and let the ponies run wild.

In regards to tone, you have to understand that a lot of the buzzy-ness comes from the speakers not moving sufficiently enough to work properly. Especially with a 4 x 12, you have to have a lot of power going through the amp before it starts to 'open up' and the speakers get moving. That usually happens at rehearsal / gig levels. Think of it this way, you just bought a Porche 911 twin turbo and you are complaining it is slow but your wife isn't letting you rev the engine above 2k because it will use too much gas. Of course once you get the revs high, the true power of that motor will manifest itself fully, but you have to give it the necessary gas to do so.

Hmm, in regards to your current problem you can get cranked tone at quieter levels by:

1) Pull out two power tubes, either the inside or the outside pair. So, your power tubes should look like
_ X X _ or X _ _ X

2) Pull out one rectifier tube. This will cut the available DC current down to match the available power tubes, provided you want rectifier sag.

3) Connect your head from the 4 ohm output to an 8 ohm cab or from the 8 ohm output to a 16 ohm cab. Removing power tubes not only cuts the wattage down, but also alters how the amp reacts to the impedence of your speakers.

4) Think about a 1 x 12 or a 2 x 12 cabinet for practicing. I PERSONALLY advocate running a pair of Yellow Jackets with the amp as well for practice / low volume application. A high quality speaker enclosure loaded with 1 or 2 Celestion Greenbacks or the Warehouse Guitar Speaker equivalent will give you good tones at a much more manageable level. Definitely look for a thiele, a 3/4 back, or some sort of ported or tuned guitar cab for this purpose. Save the 4 x 12 for gigging. Trust me, halfstacks are not good practice solutions for most people. They are simply far too powerful.

5) The fizz or presence is a quality of those G12T-75 speakers that are in the Marshall 1960a cab. I would describe them as being scooped, gritty, or scratchy, depending on how you want to think about it.
MY favourite tone with a recto is Celestion v30s mixed with Greenbacks with EL-34 tubes for rock or Celestion c90s mixed with v30s and 6L6 tubes for modern and metal tones.
One thing to consider. G12T-75s and Greenbacks are quieter (less efficient) speakers than c90s / v30s etc etc, so they will allow you to crank your amp a bit more before people whine. Just a HAIR more, though. The HAIR you gain with the quieter speakers as well as the HAIR you gain with yanking a couple of tubes makes some difference, but not a lot. Using YellowJackets gives 5 or 6 hairs, but the low power will not yield the necessary horsepower to drive most 4 x 12s hard. You need around a 100watt cab with this setup for maximum effect. At the end of the day, the amp sounds better when it is allowed to perform as it was designed!

6) Do whatever it takes to get on your wife's good side. Trust me, this works best. Maybe come up with an agreement where she leaves for an hour to go hang out with her girlfriends and you can crank the SNOT out of it. Midday is best, when your neighbors are at work. Believe me, they WILL hear it!! BAHAHAHA!

7) Buy an attenuator. This will allow you to get more of the cranked tone at a lower volume. As you rely on the attenuator to suck power more and more, it will suck tone more and more. Eventually it will alter your tone which really defeats the purpose of having one in the first place. By all accounts, the -3 to -6 db settings work best.

8. You can buy tubes that distort at lower volumes. This will also give you a cranked tone at a lower volume.

9) Some people run overdrive pedals at lower volumes to get more tube saturation.

Oh well, these are all solutions to try but they are really bandaids. Even worse, many of them cost MONEY! What you want to do is kick everyone out of the house, get your buddies over, and JAM!

When you unleash the beast, your jaw will hit the floor.
 
your settings are no good for home use either, let alone gigging levels, bass 5.00 :shock:

seriously though, ch2 and ch3 settings wise will need to be kinda worlds apart...

I will PM you my exact settings when I get home if you are interested, something that just kinda works at "most" levels.
 
YellowJacket said:
5) The fizz or presence is a quality of those G12T-75 speakers that are in the Marshall 1960a cab. I would describe them as being scooped, gritty, or scratchy, depending on how you want to think about it.

I've noticed this with my new Roadster and Marshall 1936 2x12 Cab (bought for my ex DSL). I have to jack up the treble to get rid of the mid scoop and gain some clarity. I will be buying a Mesa Roadster Cab in the next month.
 
FWIW, the Mesa Roadking 2 x 12 sounds awesome. It has two separate chambers, one for each speakers. The ported side has a c90 in it and the close back side has a v30. It sounds more balanced and less ice pick-y than a v30 loaded cab.
 
speakers are not the issue here, however crap settings are most likely the biggest issue here (and guitar used maybe)
 
yes could you send me your settings. and the guitars used are stock 92 les paul standard, 86 les paul jr, les paul with alnico IIs installed,

the stock les paul sounds best.
 
volatileNoise said:
speakers are not the issue here
No... the speakers *are* the (or *an*) issue here - as well as the cab, at least for GuitarGuy503 and probably jnelson.

G12T-75s just sound bad with a Rectifier. They're not even ideal in a 1960 cab but that horrible MDF 1936 is appalling - it makes an already hollow, loose and buzzy-sounding speaker even worse. I can't believe Marshall can even sell these things with a straight face, but they do...

If you want to keep the Marshall 4x12", Greenbacks are the way to go, either for all four or mixed 2+2 with V30s (this combination I don't personally like) or G12H-30s (which I do, very much). The difference in tone will be stunning - not the cheapest solution, but not the most expensive and definitely one of the most effective.

I would also get an attenuator - it is true that they affect the tone a bit, but for me not as badly as Yellowjacket says - I can actually get decent tones through my Hotplate even on the -16dB setting (although it does need a bit of compromising on the amp settings). Yellowjackets actually worked less well for me - I didn't feel they made as much difference at low volumes as medium ones - the amp is still loud, and still has the same sort of problems if you turn it down really low. But this may be a difference in settings and tastes, and they are one of the cheaper methods. I found the same with pulling tubes and rectifiers - I thought it reduced the depth and complexity of the tone more than it reduced the volume, so if anything counterproductive.

For me, the Hotplate and a Greenback/G12H-30 cab gives the best tones at low volumes with my Tremoverb. But, I'm more interested in lower-gain pushed sounds than tight high-gain ones, so YMMV.
 
94Tremoverb said:
volatileNoise said:
speakers are not the issue here
No... the speakers *are* the (or *an*) issue here - as well as the cab, at least for GuitarGuy503 and probably jnelson.

Yes, whats up with this? Speakers are definitely a huge determining factor in tone, much the same way cabinetry is.

G12T-75s just sound bad with a Rectifier. They're not even ideal in a 1960 cab but that horrible MDF 1936 is appalling - it makes an already hollow, loose and buzzy-sounding speaker even worse. I can't believe Marshall can even sell these things with a straight face, but they do...

I heard a 1960a 4 x 12 powered by an Orange Tiny Terror. It actually was a great combination. I agree with you though, I could care less for the G12T 75s with a Recto.

If you want to keep the Marshall 4x12", Greenbacks are the way to go, either for all four or mixed 2+2 with V30s (this combination I don't personally like) or G12H-30s (which I do, very much). The difference in tone will be stunning - not the cheapest solution, but not the most expensive and definitely one of the most effective.

If you are living in North America, you can definitely check out Warehouse Guitar Speakers. I used some for a cab build this summer and I am VERY impressed with them. They have models which are very similar to the Celestions, but they are made in USA and cost $60 less a speaker.

I would also get an attenuator - it is true that they affect the tone a bit, but for me not as badly as Yellowjacket says - I can actually get decent tones through my Hotplate even on the -16dB setting (although it does need a bit of compromising on the amp settings). Yellowjackets actually worked less well for me - I didn't feel they made as much difference at low volumes as medium ones - the amp is still loud, and still has the same sort of problems if you turn it down really low. But this may be a difference in settings and tastes, and they are one of the cheaper methods. I found the same with pulling tubes and rectifiers - I thought it reduced the depth and complexity of the tone more than it reduced the volume, so if anything counterproductive.

As we have discussed, our tones are almost polar opposites so our needs require very opposite solutions. Buying tubes that distort at lower levels will help get that 'cranked' tone earlier as well. The Yellow Jackets work best with a greenback equipped 2 x 12 or 4 x 12. The EL-84s simply get stifled by a higher wattage cab. It is a DIFFERENT tone altogether, although a good one.

For me, the Hotplate and a Greenback/G12H-30 cab gives the best tones at low volumes with my Tremoverb. But, I'm more interested in lower-gain pushed sounds than tight high-gain ones, so YMMV.

Hmm, it definitely helps to know what you want before investing $$$s in your rig. For me, I prefer tube crunch over 'complexity'. Even with my very clear sounding cabs, the Recto has a propensity for sounding muddy because of its complex tone. In fact, all the tweaks I have performed on my rig have been to add clarity to my tone. I really go for a chainsaw sort of modern tone and a slightly more vintage marshall inspired crunch, which the Dual has in spades when equipped with an adequately good set of EL-34s.
 
YellowJacket said:
94Tremoverb said:
volatileNoise said:
speakers are not the issue here
No... the speakers *are* the (or *an*) issue here - as well as the cab, at least for GuitarGuy503 and probably jnelson.

Yes, whats up with this? Speakers are definitely a huge determining factor in tone

The speakers are one contributing factor yes, but having less than ideal EQ settings, can often be a much bigger contributing factor.
 
I would concur that the g12-75 speakers sound pretty sterile with Rectos. Could try either boosting the channels volumes and then use the global master as a overall volume or vice versa. I have heard this can make the amp sound more aggressive at lower volumes and maybe less fuzzy. Worth a shot . Other than that all I can do is reiterate that it is not an ideal bedroom amp...but..it is still fun to shake the walls at home :lol:

-AJH
 

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