External EQ settings to tighten Low end

[Addictedtokaos]

Just wondering what frequencies to cut or boost to tighten the overall sound of my Rectoverb. Its a 7-band Sniper Modded Boss EQ.

 

[rocker43]

Hello, I don't have either one of your devices. But I have used the kerry king eq quite alot on my Marshall JVM. I like to run it in my loop, it seems to get me where I am trying to go. I just got back to buying another Road King and haven't tried it yet. But when I do I will probably try it in the loop as I have always had good luck that way. I like to just set my tone the best I can on my amp first and then turn on the eq and adjust to taste. Good luck

 

[Chris McKinley]

rocker,

He's asking which frequencies you "adjust to taste". If the mod hasn't changed the frequencies that the unit affects, then you need to cut the 200Hz by 2 to 4db with the EQ in the effects loop, not up front of the amp.

You may also want to keep the bass knob on the amp no higher than about noon as well. This should get rid of most of the mud. If you're still looking for more, you may wish to add a Tubescreamer-based overdrive pedal up front of the amp with the level maxed and the gain/distortion set to minimum.

 

[Addictedtokaos]

Thanks Chris!

I dont have a tubescreamer but I do have a keeley modded MT2 which ive tried. I got some decent results using the method you described.

Being a noob to this, when boosting your amp what do I set my CH2's gain to?

 

[Chris McKinley]

The first thing I'd tell you is never to use your Keeley MT-2 up front of a Mesa. I've got one also and the thing isn't an overdrive; it's a flat-out distortion pedal with unusably high gain for the purposes of acting as an overdrive to push a real tube amp's preamp tubes into higher saturation. Using the MT-2 with a Mesa ends up making a boutique amp sound like a solid-state toy.

My recommendation is either to use the MT-2 with a solid state amp's clean channel in situations where you don't have access to your Mesa, or just sell it and get a really nice OD instead. Either way, you're still going to need an OD.

I don't ever run my Triple Recto's gain above about 2:00. Even if I'm on channel 3 set to Modern, I don't go higher than that. If I actually need more gain than that, I will use a clean boost, an OD, a treble booster, or some combination of them up front of the preamp tubes to drive them a little harder.

 

[konstantine RK]

I can second that on the gain and the clean boost...

why anyone would use distorition in a recto is beyond me!

 

[clutch71]

Chris is our resident pedal expert and you should trust his recommendations. A TS808 RI (what I found to go best with a Dr) or Maxon 808 set as Chris described with cut the bass frequencies and add a nice mid range to the lower Mid voiced platform.

Never had much luck using eq pedals to tighten the bass. OD's always seemed to work best IME. YMMV.

One thing I do feel is missing is what cab and speakers you're running? I ran an oversized Recto cabs (32x30x14.5) for years. I switched to a more traditional size cab (30x30x14.5) and really liked how they tightened the tone.

 

[Chris McKinley]

Cabs can make a big difference. It's just that at $800-900 a pop, and in a recessed economy, changing cabs can be a bit of an expensive and ham-handed solution for just tightening up the bass a little.

That said, if you can afford to do it, the right cab does make a difference. When I first got my Recto, I tested it in store through the oversized cab first. I liked it of course, but when I tested it through the smaller Stilletto cab, the bass was clearer and the mids were much better for a lead-playing shredder like me.

It's funny, back when I had my Mesa series III stack many thousands of years ago in a time called the 80's, I wanted as much bass response as I could get so that my guitar would sound more powerful. In searching for that more powerful tone, I discovered the mid-scoop years before Metallica made it famous. It's interesting that, as I learned more about production and recording, and about sound in general, I realized that the guitar sounds most powerful in a band setting when it owns the frequencies it's in. IOW, when the guitar and bass are competing for the really low frequencies, the bass always wins and the guitar disappears. When the guitar is competing against the cymbals and vocal details for the highs, the guitar disappears. If you also have your mids scooped, the guitar disappears there, too, leaving you sounding weak and thin, even with a sound that comes across as powerful when played all by itself.

Ultimately, the guitar is a mid-range instrument, and that's where the majority of energy needs to be spent fussing over tone. "Powerfulness" in the bass is a function of dynamic contrasts. It's very much like painting in that respect. Do a Google image search of the works of Rembrandt, Vermeer, Caravaggio, van Loo, or even of Thomas Kinkade. Here's a wiki page with several great examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Golden_Age_painting

Note the van Loo Danae in the right margin of the page and how much darker the figure in black appears in contrast with the luminescence of the sleeping nude and the rich colorful satin of the drapery. The canvas can only be painted but so black. "None more black", as it were, and the black used is no darker than that used in the Zeuxis by Aert de Gelder on the left side of the page. Yet the black in the Danae pops a lot more....it comes across as more strikingly black because of the contrast in which it is set.

So it is with the guitar's bass frequencies. A lot of bass in your tone doesn't come across that way if it happens to overlap too precisely with the bass guitar. Another factor is which bass frequencies to emphasize. A large bump in the 200-250Hz range bass doesn't come across nearly as powerful as a smaller bump in the 100Hz range. This is because the 200Hz frequencies are naturally "muddy" to the human ear and the 100Hz frequencies are starting to get closer to that range which is more felt than heard. Palm mutes and chugs at 100Hz have a more powerful percussive sound to them than chugs played at 200Hz, and the difference can actually be more dramatic than you might expect.

Both 100Hz and 200Hz are considered to be bass frequencies, but the qualitative difference they make in your tone can be powerful. This is why it's often more useful to use an EQ with precise frequency sliders than to simply rely on the clumsier bass knob of the amp.

 

[YellowJacket]

Cabs can make a big difference. It's just that at $800-900 a pop, and in a recessed economy, changing cabs can be a bit of an expensive and ham-handed solution for just tightening up the bass a little.

That said, if you can afford to do it, the right cab does make a difference. When I first got my Recto, I tested it in store through the oversized cab first. I liked it of course, but when I tested it through the smaller Stilletto cab, the bass was clearer and the mids were much better for a lead-playing shredder like me.

Cabs make a HUGE difference! I wonder why more people simply don't modify them to reduce muddiness? I guess it is much less 'plug and play' than it is to slap a pedal somewhere in the signal chain. After doing a couple of DIY projects, I'd be interested to see how a 'ported centre baffle' mounted in an oversized rectocab would effect the tone. Oh well, better off to buy the 'stiletto cab' to begin with!

I think the important thing is to understand that there are MANY solutions to tweak tone, not just one. I really like how you use a visual element to express the nuance of tone. I encounter the same sorts of dilemmas when composing concert music. Consonance only sounds so consonant until you contrast it against something darker. Most 20th century composers forgot that lighter colours make blacks seem more black.

Colour is definitely an interesting way of looking at registration. I used to have bass the competed with the bass and I discovered that it really muddied up the overall tone of the band. Now when I EQ tone, I roll the bass back and try to get as mid intensive of a tone as possible. I was going to get an EQ pedal but then after building a couple of cabs, I haven't had the mud problems anymore. ^__^

An interesting aside: Even BASS players advocate running the mids higher in relationship to everything else. I noticed that with bass guitar, the louder you go, the less 'bass' you need. If you turn the bass up, you can't hear the pitch anymore. IMO, the infatuation with a scooped sound comes from the standard smilie face used with most hifi stereo units.

 

[Addictedtokaos]

awesome info... so sell the MT2, keep the EQ.

how would say at MAXON compare to a Hughes & Kettner Tube Factor for boosting? Wasted money?

BTW im running a REctoverb Combo. So I dont know what tweaking I could do with that...

 

[UnderJollyRoger]

IOW, when the guitar and bass are competing for the really low frequencies, the bass always wins and the guitar disappears.

Have you ever listened to Metallica's And Justice For All ? :mrgreen:

Just kidding, you're perfectly right :wink:

 

[ryjan]

IOW, when the guitar and bass are competing for the really low frequencies, the bass always wins and the guitar disappears.

Have you ever listened to Metallica's And Justice For All ? :mrgreen:

Just kidding, you're perfectly right :wink:

:lol: :lol:
Great example! I try to eq my amp to have my lower frequencies start right where my bassist's leave off. Overlap creates mud but to much of a gap between you sounds awkward as well.

 

[Chris McKinley]

IMO, OD's with a single preamp tube are more about hype than substance. Some can be very good, but often it's not the tube but just the fact that it's got a good circuit that gives the desireable sound. A single preamp tube of any kind at all won't provide very much in the way of overdriving gain. Yes, it will have the same kind of response curve to input that a good tube amp does in that the harder you play, the more the sound will clip, but frankly that's also true of solid state circuitry. Is it worth the extra money? No.

A well-designed solid state circuit into a good tube amp is going to produce a much better sound than a mediocre circuit that has a single preamp tube into that same amp. IOW, it's a lot more to do with the circuit than the tube. The tube is just there to cash in the desire for "tube sound" so they can tack on an extra $100 to the price tag.

Besides, if you want the sound of your amp only with the added character of a more overdriven preamp tube, simply run a clean boost in front of your amp and voila! More overdriven preamp tubes, and not just one, but all of your amp's preamp tubes...and for much cheaper.

 

[Chris McKinley]

RE: "I try to eq my amp to have my lower frequencies start right where my bassist's leave off. Overlap creates mud but to much of a gap between you sounds awkward as well.". And that's the key.....to fill out the entire sonic spectrum of desireable frequencies, but not to double up on some frequencies at the expense of others. Bass guitar and kick drums own the bottom end and always will. Cymbals, certain keyboard sounds, vocal detail, and a small percentage of guitar detail all vie for the "presence" range. In the middle are primary vocals and guitar. That's the basic rule of thumb right there.

 

[ryjan]

A well-designed solid state circuit into a good tube amp is going to produce a much better sound than a mediocre circuit that has a single preamp tube into that same amp.

Like an EMG 81. 8)

 

[Chris McKinley]

ryjan, that's not really a viable example. An EMG-81 isn't really analogous to any OD circuit. Now, if someone already likes the sound of just their pickup running into the amp, whether it's an active or a passive pickup, that's great. Lots of guys, including me occasionally, do. But we're talking about a comparison of purely solid-state OD's vs. a solid-state + single preamp tube OD. In both cases, it's the circuitry of the solid-state portion of the overdrive that contributes the most to whether you're going to like the sound or not.

 

[ryjan]

ryjan, that's not really a viable example. An EMG-81 isn't really analogous to any OD circuit. Now, if someone already likes the sound of just their pickup running into the amp, whether it's an active or a passive pickup, that's great. Lots of guys, including me occasionally, do. But we're talking about a comparison of purely solid-state OD's vs. a solid-state + single preamp tube OD. In both cases, it's the circuitry of the solid-state portion of the overdrive that contributes the most to whether you're going to like the sound or not.

Solid state circuit into a tube amp.

 

[94Tremoverb]

To date, of all the combinations I've tried (which to be fair is not as many as some obsessive pedal-swappers seem to!), the most successful have generally been solid-state overdrive and distortion pedals into overdriven tube amps, followed by tube pedals into strictly clean tube or solid-state amps (sometimes with another solid-state pedal in front of the tube one), followed quite a bit further back by clean boosts into overdriven tube amps, then solid-state pedals into solid-state amps, and at the bottom of the league, tube pedals into overdriven tube amps. I love my V-Twin pedal (yes I know it's hybrid, not all-tube), liked the V-1 I had, but both of them sound like *garbage* into an overdriven tube amp, to me - it's like the way too much chocolate will make you sick. They sound great into clean amps, but if you add tube distortion on top of tube distortion it's just too much. I don't really get the clean boost/overdriven amp thing either, kind of OK but it doesn't really work well for me and I find tends to make things harsh and overblown. But the *right* purely solid-state overdrive into a tube amp... magical. This isn't "overdrive used as a clean-ish boost" either, I've never liked that and use them as actual overdrives with a fair amount of gain and the level only up a little bit.

Just the other day I accidentally acquired an old Boss SD-1 which has the magic, into the Tremoverb. I've never got on with them before so either this one is different or the Tremoverb is (from any other amp I've tried one with). Often it's the specific combination that works, the RAT into my old DC-5 was great too, but isn't quite so good with the Tremoverb.

This is of course just my experience, YMM (and will) V.

 

[Blaklynx]

awesome info... so sell the MT2, keep the EQ.

how would say at MAXON compare to a Hughes & Kettner Tube Factor for boosting? Wasted money?

BTW im running a REctoverb Combo. So I dont know what tweaking I could do with that...

Interesting that you mention the H&K. I think it's a good pedal but I own the 3ch Tubeman, so I can't directly comment on the Tube Factor. I like the Tubeman but I have it hooked up as per link below.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=46915

I posted this a while ago that nobody commented on......***crying***....of which I thought would shed some interest in trying out more adventurous setups for more tones. Seems I was wrong LOL ....

My gear is packed up at the moment.... renovating.... so I really miss not playing/practicing. From what I remember, the setup above worked really well and sounded great, especially the cleans. I never had the chance to fine tune it all.... but I will get back onto it when I get the chance.

All in the name of Rock and Roll.......

 

[Addictedtokaos]

Ive tried searching the forums but couldnt find anything on the Maxon OOD-9. The Organic OD???

Anyone try one of these as a boost? How does it compare to the TS9 or OD808?