Express 5:50, I need a change.

[FuzzLove]

Hello there people of the Boogie Board

I have just been reccommended these boards after posting a thread about my Mesa Express 5:50 on another forum, I've just had a read through a few threads here, and these look to be very usefull forums.

Basically, I have the above amp.
It's an awsome amp, there's nothing 'wrong' with it at all. But lately I've felt like maybe it's not for me. The two main problems are: that it has the American style smoother voicing on the distortion, the burn channel sounds amazing if that's what you want, especially with the contour. But I feel that I know want a crunchier sounding British distortion. The other problem that the reverb is EXTREMELY subtle, to be honest, I'm not even sure if it's working properly, if it is, then I'd be very suprised that that is how Mesa wanted their spring reverb tanks to sound. I've compared the clean sound without rever to the clean sound with, it definatly does something, but it sucks compared to any other reverb I've heard.

Basically, any information or solutions regarding either of these problems is very welcomed.

I was wondering if there is any possible way to change the power tubes to EL34s?

As I said, I do really like this amp, there's nothing wrong with it at all. I just feel like I want to go in a different direction.

My main guitar is a custom Tele, made from maple, with vintage hand-wound Seymour Duncan JB/Jazz pick-ups, with a coil tapped bridge.

Thankyou very much for any help in advance.

Fuzz.

X

 

[ifailedshapes]

HI. Welcome to the board! There are a lot of great people on here (and a few a-holes... j/k).

First of all, in my opinion the reverb is anything but subtle on my amp, especially when it's maxed out. Maybe make sure the reverb tank is plugged in all the way. Also, it's a tube-driven reverb, so you may have a bad tube.

I have the 5:25, so while we have the same preamp, my power amp has more of the British flavor you may be seeking. Plenty of people on hear swear up and down that the 5:25 and 5:50 sound vastly different, but I have played both side-by-side, and the differences are subtle. Unless you play at very loud volumes, your power amp won't color the sound as much as the preamp.

As far as putting EL-34s in your amp is concerned, I wouldn't recommend it. Your power tubes would be biased incorrectly and you would have no warranty. Also, as I tried to say above, it would only be the slightest of changes. At the end of the day, it's still an Express.

Here's an idea that I might get flamed over, but it's how I do things. I have my clean channel set very clean - think Fender clean. I use a pedal to throw some dirt on that channel when I want a good breakup. I have channel 2 set on Burn for a balls-to-the-wall rock sound. Maybe you could find a good pedal to get you closer to the sound you are looking for. Then you could leave channel 2 set to that "American style smoother voicing" as you called it.

Anyway, I'm just trying to give you some ideas. Other people will have other ideas for you, but it's ultimately your decision. good luck on your tone quest!

 

[GoranS]

I was thinking the same about the reverb. It is anything BUT subtle. I like to have just a touch of reverb and is having a hard time dialing in just that. It's really awesome but way too loud IMO. I think you're having a bad V5 tube.
I'm thinking of trying a low gain tube there myself, a 12AT7 since the mod have got some good revievs on the forum.

Here's an idea that I might get flamed over, but it's how I do things. I have my clean channel set very clean - think Fender clean.

Just the way I use it to. The clean channel real clean + a Fulltone OCD. Tone heaven to me!

/G

 

[MrMarkIII]

..."crunchier sounding British distortion"...
There are tons of pedals for this.
MI Audio Crunch Box, Catalinbread DLS, any decent modeling pedal with the speaker sims turned off, etc.
You can't just drop EL-34s into a 6L6 amp. That's major mods time, and major bucks. Plus you would lose those Fender cleans.

 

[THE TUBENATOR]

Greetings Fuzz and welcome to the Boogie Board! I read your post and I feel for you. You have an incredible amp but it's just not doing it for you. You have the 5:50 and you don't seem to be happy with two important aspects of the amp; the reverb, and the "American Style Smoother Sounding Distortion".
Right off I would like to ask you if you purchased your 5:50 amp used? Have you checked all the tubes? Are they in good condition and are they the specified tube as per Mesa Engineering? If it's a used amp the previous owner may have installed some aftermarket tubes that are diminishing the effectiveness of the pre-amp and the output sections of the amp. Mesa amps are known for their amazingly clean tone, out of this Earth pre-amp tone shaping controls, and also the thick "Fender like" American vibe of the 6L6 output tube. If you do not run your amp wide open the output tube tonal flavor contribution of the 6L6 vs EL84 or EL34 tubes does not really play heavily on your sound unless you tend to play your amp wide open at the high end of the Master Volume range ( I do that often and I prefer the 6L6 tubes, and I can say that tubes DO NOT LAST LONG WHEN YOU DO THAT). Anything less than 70% wide open on the Master Volume and for the most part you will not be able to truly hear a big difference between a 6L6 & a EL34 or EL84! When pushing an amp to its limits you start to hear the difference between the output tubes, speaker distortion and speaker types but at lower volume settings it's all pre-amp! Before you right off the Express 5:50 that you own, look closely at ALL of the tubes and then experiment with your settings. Mesa amps are not plug and play!! You have to dial in the tone that moves your soul. Then plug in a guitar with different pickups and you have to start all over again!

 

[J.J]

For the reverb, sounds like you need to change preamp tube V5. Most people don't like the reverb past 12:00 as it gets very overpowering. I usually don't go much past 10:00 myself.

The MC90 speaker in the 5:50 is quite a smooth sounding speaker and works very well for high gain sounds. If you want British grit a speaker change to something like the V30 should deliver. I have both speakers with my 5:25 and the V30 gives great crunch tones.

As mentioned a good pedal like the OCD can grit things up really well. I love mine 8)

 

[Don]

Something's wrong with your reverb. The Accutronics reverb tank in mine died and was replaced under warranty.

I don't even raise my reverb above 9:00! I've played very convincing surf tunes with my 5:50. It's got better reverb than my Vibrolux Reverb and Super Reverb (I'm not kidding)!

As far as the type of gain the amp provides, you're right, it's not for every one. I'd get a pedal- Lovepedal has a nepedal available called the Superlead that's supposed to have a cool Marshall like sound. A pedal like that will add a voice to the cool tones that the amp already has.

 

[FuzzLove]

Thanks a lot for your replys everyone!

I bought the amp brand new from a store about 2/3 months ago, but I know that ofcourse this dosn't mean that the tubes are ok.

To be honest I was never sure that this amp had tube driven reverb, and so I never though of that. At the moment, when you turn the reverb on, it definatly does something to the overall tone, but it's not reverb. Could this be because I am activating the tube that drives the reverb, but the tube is dead, and so all I am doing is activating a tube socket, but not the actual tube? Because it makes a difference, just not the right one.. Also, when you change the level of the 'verb in any direction, it makes no difference on either channel, so it definatly sounds like I need to replace the tube.. I have some preamp tubes in another amp that I could use to check with, would that be ok?

I definatly agree that the 5:25 and the 5:50 sound different, although I've not played them side by side, I played them both on the same day, in different stores. I decided that I liked the 50 a lot more, it sounded great in the shop. But it's like, as soon as I got it home, I liked it less and less.

I wasn't aware that the power amp tubes would make only a small difference, I know that they only break up at high volumes (which I don't play at apart from at gigs), but I was under the impression that EL34s would break up a lot quicker than 6L6s? Either way, I don't want to ruin the cleans or void the warranty, so it's not a sensible thing to do. I would make more sense to just sell the amp if I do decide that I want something different.

I have an Electro Harmonix Bass Big Muff, which I love the sound of, and also an old EH Hot Tubes and a Made In Japan Boss OD-1, but I don't really like the sound of the latter two. I'm definatly open to getting a really decent dirt-box to fill the void, and it's what I'll probably do, but I'd be a lot more satisfied within myself if my amp could do it on it's own, if you know what I mean. I though most people used the OCD as a boost rather than for it's own distortion?

As for speakers, I don't think speaker distortion is what I'm looking for at all, and so keeping the high wattage stock speaker in this amp is probably a good idea. I've never liked the sound of V-30s in any cabs that I've played, apart from Orange cabs. I have however, considered buying some kind of 1x12 extension cabinet? Would I be able to run both that, and the speaker in the combo at the same time? Is that a bad idea as there would be too much overall speaker wattage compared to amp wattage?

Another thing that I don't like is the fact that the amp is really noisey when you're not playing anything on the clean channel, and sometimes feeds back a lot when you're not playing anything on the dirty channel. Any solutions to this.

I've owned about 4 amps in the past year, and I really don't want the hassle of having to find another one. I'll also loose money if I sell it. But part of me thinks I should sell it or exchange it for something else as I'm not 100% happy with it. But maybe with the reverb fixed and a dirt-box, I will be .. You guys have restored some of my faith that this might still be the amp for me haha.

Thanks again for the great intelligant replys, very mature, unlike some of the other forums that I post on

Fuzz.

 

[floaty83]

Your reverb is definitely screwed up. Probably just the V5 tube needs a replacement. You can try one of your other pre-amp tubes, that wouldn't be a problem.

 

[FuzzLove]

I just took out the tank, it was all plugged in properly and that, so that's not the problem.

So I'll replace the tube in a minute to see if that works. If I use one from another position in the same amp though, won't that screw something else up?

Also, which one is V5?

 

[Don]

Looking at the back of the amp, V5 is that last small tube to the left.

You can swap the preamp tubes as much as you like without any problem (unless you have a bad tube or two).

The only noise that I get from my 5:50 is some hiss. It's a bit louder than my other amps, but it's not loud enough to be an issue.

My amp does not feedback at all. It shouldn't feedback unless you have the gain and master cranked at the same time. You should also try swapping V2 (the second small tube from the right) for this issue. It's the first gain stage for the dirty channel and is the tube most likely to cause feedback issues.

Tubes aren't made the way they used to be and can be an issue, even in a new amp.

BTW, are you into fuzz pedals (FuzzLove)?

 

[FuzzLove]

First of all - THANKYOU GOOD PEOPLE SO MUCH.

Problem solved. I removed the V5 tube, to find that it was full of powdery white stuff, and it had a small crack in the bottom, and so it had lost it vaccum.

I removed the two preamp tubes from my old Fender Champ 12 to use to replace the one in the Mesa, they are Electro Harmonix valves, one of them was a 12AX7, and the other was a 12AT7. I decided to use the AX7, as that's what fender uses stock, and I still hadn't heard what my amp is supposed to sound like stock .

So I replaced it no problem. Whilst I was there, I removed all of the other valves and put them back in, just to check if they were all okay - they're all fine. Although, 4 of them (including the broken one) say 'Russian 2' on them, and one of them says 'SLOVAK' on it, is that normal? Just wondered, I suppose it dosn't matter.

So I put everything back together, turned the amp on, waited for it to warm up. Turn on the reverb on on the clean channel, and it sounds BEAUTIFUL, perhaps even more so than that Fender Twin that I had a while back.. Then I tried the second channel, and it's superb, such a vast improvement. I now have that warm creamy lead sound that many a 'virtuoso' would use (not that I'm into that kinda thing, but I cant deny that the type of tone is awsome), and I'm very happy with it. This has made the amp sound 10 times better, seriously.

Also, magically, most of the hiss on the clean channel has gone since replacing the tube.

This has all changed my opinion on this amp drastically, I think that I'll get a nice crunchy sounding distortion pedal, and I'll be away.

Again, thankyou so much for the help, I'm so glad that I came to this forum haha.

EDIT: Also, In reply to Don, I am into fuzz pedals, but my user name is mostly in regards to my love I had/had for the band Kyuss.. At the moment I only have a EH Bass Big Muff, I plan on buying a cheap build your own kit of a copy of a Fuzz Factory that I saw too. I want to build up my pedal collection, but I suppose, the more pedals in the chain, the more tone is sucked.

 

[ifailedshapes]

I definatly agree that the 5:25 and the 5:50 sound different, although I've not played them side by side, I played them both on the same day, in different stores. I decided that I liked the 50 a lot more, it sounded great in the shop. But it's like, as soon as I got it home, I liked it less and less.

...

I wasn't aware that the power amp tubes would make only a small difference, I know that they only break up at high volumes (which I don't play at apart from at gigs), but I was under the impression that EL34s would break up a lot quicker than 6L6s? Either way, I don't want to ruin the cleans or void the warranty, so it's not a sensible thing to do. I would make more sense to just sell the amp if I do decide that I want something different.

...

I have an Electro Harmonix Bass Big Muff, which I love the sound of, and also an old EH Hot Tubes and a Made In Japan Boss OD-1, but I don't really like the sound of the latter two. I'm definatly open to getting a really decent dirt-box to fill the void, and it's what I'll probably do, but I'd be a lot more satisfied within myself if my amp could do it on it's own, if you know what I mean. I though most people used the OCD as a boost rather than for it's own distortion?

...

As for speakers, I don't think speaker distortion is what I'm looking for at all, and so keeping the high wattage stock speaker in this amp is probably a good idea. I've never liked the sound of V-30s in any cabs that I've played, apart from Orange cabs. I have however, considered buying some kind of 1x12 extension cabinet? Would I be able to run both that, and the speaker in the combo at the same time? Is that a bad idea as there would be too much overall speaker wattage compared to amp wattage?

...

Another thing that I don't like is the fact that the amp is really noisey when you're not playing anything on the clean channel, and sometimes feeds back a lot when you're not playing anything on the dirty channel. Any solutions to this.

Let me give you my replies to a few things you mentioned:

1) I personally think the 5:25 and 5:50 sound almost identical. Note, I said almost. I'm curious if you played the different amps through similar cabs. I have the 5:25 1x10" and that is certainly different than a 5:50 2x12", however that difference is more the cabs/speakers. If you play both amps through the same cab at a reasonable volume, I think you'll notice they sound pretty similar.

2) Again with the breakup, you can change your preamp tubes to achieve an earlier onset of breakup. Your power tubes only enter that equation at extreme volume levels.

3) The OCD is an awesome dirt pedal. 'Nuff said.

4) Regarding the speakers, many guitar players mix different speaker types and cabs to achieve the sound they desire. I would highly recommend experimenting in this area. If you read the manual that came with your amp, Mesas are not very sensitive to impedance mismatches so just do what sounds best to you. Also, you have plenty of power to drive a couple cabs - no worries there!

5) Is your guitar noisy on the clean channels of other amps? If so, the noise you may be hearing might be something to do with your axe. If not, you might want to try some lower-gain preamp tubes. As far as the feedback on channel 2, welcome to the world of high gain. The feedback and noise on that channel is totally normal, and if you don't want that, you can use a good noise gate and/or feedback eliminator to do away with those.

You have an awesome amp. I am not saying that as a smitten Express owner (i.e. I admit there are things that could be improved upon.) Think back to when you purchased it, though; this is a killer value for the money spent. I really think your money will be better spent on making this amp work for you. There is no such thing as the perfect guitar or perfect amp, plus many of us feel the real fun is making your gear fit your particular needs. We'll all help you if you have any questions, because you know, we're all so mature around here and all that...

Cheers, man!

 

[ifailedshapes]

P.S. I own a fuzz factory and highly recommend it. The most fun is playing with the knob labeled Stab (stability), but the noises made with that knob are more suited for bedroom fun. Used as a normal fuzz, though, it's extremely versatile. Check out the Vexter series - exact same internals, and a lot less money than I paid for my hand-painted one!

 

[FuzzLove]

It's all sorted now man

1) I played the 1x12 5:25 and the 1x12 5:50 on the same day, in different shops, with different guitars. Both humbuckered Telecasters, but they were still different. I just felt that the 25 lacked something that the 50 had, I can't put my finger on exactly what that is, but I decided to buy the 50.. I managed to get it for £1325, which is a lot of money, and a considerable amount more than what you would pay in the US.. But it's about £150 less than what other places were selling it for, and he threw in a nice instrument cable. When I played it in the store, I tried out a Maxon Tubescreamer, which sounded great as a boost for really heavy stuff.. I only have a Boss DS-1 to use as a boost, which dosn't sound as good.

2) Now that I have the reverb working, I'm happy with how the tone on both channels.

3) Haha, never tried one personally. I'd definatly give one a go. For some reason I feel like I want something different though. I played a Blackstar HT-Dual tube OD pedal once, sounded brilliant, it was £80 used, so regret not buying that haha.. There's so many to choose from, I just get confused.

4) It's definatly something I've always been interested in. I think maybe when I get enough money spare, I'll get a 1x12 Orange cab and run them both together or something. Obviously I'll try various cabs though.. Just read the manual, I'm intrigued by the description 'elastic vibe'. I had absolutly no idea that you could pair up non-matching inpendances, I always thought that it would damage something, thanks for the heads up.

5) Since replacing the reverb tube, about 80% of the hiss I was getting has dissapeared. . Haha, yeah I suppose so, I had a Blackstar amp once, it fed back a hell of a lot more, so I suppose it could be worse... As far as the guitar goes, I do sometimes worry that the pick-ups have lost some of their goodness in their old age, and that they're abit noisey, but I think it'll be fine.

I'm definatly feeling this amp alot more now that it's all working properly
Now to buy a guitar with a mahogony body, and experiment with that

Cheers.

EDIT: About the Fuzz Factory, I was thinking of buying and assembling this: http://www.musikding.de/product_info.php/info/p2192_The-Factory--germanium-fuzz-kit.html

I spoke to someone who has one the other day, apparently the components are actually better than those used on the real Zvex ones, but I don't know how true that is. Either way, it's a tenth of the price.

 

[J.J]

Fuzzlove,

Glad you got the reverb fixed. This has reminded me of when I got my 5:25. After playing for 10 minutes and starting to think that the Express reverb was not all it was cracked up to be I realised that the reverb was just not working. I swapped to another 5:25 and all was good. The shop tech then pulled out V5 on the bad amp and it had a big crack in it just like yours. Perhaps the guy who installs V5 has big hands :lol:

As for your Rusian 2 tubes, you can do a lot better than those. I have had my express nearly a year and a half now and I am still amazed by how good it sounds and the ground it can cover. I had turned me away from many pedals as it generally sounds better without them. Playing with the tubes can really help to fine tune things.

For me after much swapping and listening I am using the Tung sol RI 12ax7 tubes in V1, V2 and V5. Stock tube in V3 and a Long plate JJ in V4. The long plate JJ sounds like the Tungsol, but is warmer, though at lot differnt from the short plate JJ.

Swapping to the MC90 speaker got me much closer to where I wanted to be with Texas blues sounds and high gain. I now have the V30 in a copy of the real Express extension cab I built and love running both speakers together.

The only real complaint I have is that the 5:25 tends to sound better at lower volumes than gig volumes. Perhaps the 5:50 is the other way around, but eventually I will probably get an Electra Dyne or MKV for gigs and keep the Express for practice and recording. My next is will be a Mesa !

 

[floaty83]

The only real complaint I have is that the 5:25 tends to sound better at lower volumes than gig volumes. Perhaps the 5:50 is the other way around, but eventually I will probably get an Electra Dyne or MKV for gigs and keep the Express for practice and recording. My next is will be a Mesa !

After I've continued to experiment with my 5:50 at rehearsal and at home, I've come to realize how completely different the 5 and 50 watt modes are. My 5:50 absolutely SINGS in 50W at higher volumes. The Burn channel is incredibly expressive for chunky rhythms and sweet leads. The clean channel can clip ever so nicely once the master starts going up above 11:00.

The 5W mode is a completely different animal. That mode sounds good to me no matter what volume it's at. But the tone has got that extra harmonic content that completely changes everything. Love it.

 

[GoranS]

Slightly of topic, but anyway...

Why limit yourself to only ONE dirt pedal? :lol:
I have a small collection, still growing:
- Fulltone Full-drive 2 MOSFET
- Fulltone OCD version 3
- Fulltone OCD version 4
- Fulltone Catalyst
- Fulltone Fat-Boost 3 (can produce some grit)
- Boss Metal Core ML-2
- MXR Dist+ (vintage, 1 owner = me)
- Cmatmods SignaDrive
- Digitech Bad Monkey
- MI Crunch-Box

And I'm sure I've forgotten some... :roll:
My all time favorite of them all is the OCD v4.

 

[Don]

Great news! I knew something was very wrong if an Express had weak reverb! Enjoy your amp!

I asked about fuzz pedals because I am crazy about them.

I have a Fulltone '69 Pedal (I bought it almost 10 years ago when they were cheap) as the only dirt pedal on my pedalboard (I don't use OD pedals at this time), and have/have had many others.

 

[FuzzLove]

Haha yeah, I feel kinda silly after that, I thought the reverb was working, but it was just very subtle. But obviously it wasn't working at all.

I heard that Mesa tubes are actually Groove tubes? Is that true?.. I'm happy with how it sounds at the moment, but I realise that you can do better, so when they need replacing, or when I get payed, I'll experiement with some different preamp tubes, though I'll have to do some reading, as there are so many different ones that I don't know where to start. I'm sure they all respond differently with different amps too.

I mostly play heavy rock I suppose, but with clean parts. Sometimes I play bluesy leads, both clean and overdriven, and sometimes I play heavy chunky riffs which I suppose could be described as metal. When I tried a Mesa F50 head before I bought my Express, I played it through a 2x12 ENGL cab, with V30s in it, and I really didn't like the way the speakers sounded, too much midrange. But saying that, I played an Orange cab with V30s, and loved it. So I suppose when I get an extension cab, I'll have to take my amp around with me and try it out in the stores.

The 50 sounds better the louder you turn it up, definatly. It still sounds fine at lowish volumes though, I'm yet to gig with this amp, can't wait.

The 5 watt mode is certainly different, it's a little thin sounding for me I think, I prefer the 50 watt mode.

I woudn't limit myself to one dirt pedal, I already have 3, but I just don't use them. Also, the more I have plugged in, the more tone is gonna get sucked away from me. Untill I get some really awsome cables (using Planet Waves at the moment, they're okay) I'm staying away from pedals. That's a nice little collection there though, I definatly need to check out the OCD.

I wanna get myself a EH Q-Tron, some kind of chorus pedal, maybe a new delay, and that Fuzz Factory