Electradyne with digitech gsp1101

[fayat]

Hi,
Has anybody tried this effects processor with the Dyne ? Just curious.
I actually use it with a G major 2 and it do suck the tone. The sound of the dyne is way more pleasant without it in the effect loop (although it has been presented as a very transparent processor...).

The 4MC with the gsp seems to be nice...

 

[wekiitoedzo]

I have 2 digitech studio effects, 2101, 2112, i use the 2112 with the dyne it's perfect however a bit noisy. It can't be noticed playing live, but still annoying. I also use my cry baby linking it direct to the 2112. As for the noise I was told it might help if you use better cables, and each as short as possible. i might try.

 

[elvis]

TC Electronic equipment in general is low impedance, like most studio equipment, to keep the noise low. The most common reason for "tone sucking" is the inability of an amp's FX send to drive low impedance effects units. It is 90% likely that you will get all of your tone back if you put a good buffer in between the amp's FX send and the input of the G Major. Any buffer will do, as long as it has at least 1Meg Ohm input impedance, less than 1k Ohm output impedance, is low noise, and can stand the high signal level of the amp's FX send.

It is also likely that the signal from the amp to the G Major is very hot, and it may be overdriving the G Major a little, altering the tone. It may need to be attenuated before it gets to the G Major, or adjusted with a level control in the G Major. I believe that turning down the Master will help adjust the send level. You can gain it up again after the G Major if you want to drive the output stage hard.

The TC equipment is VERY good, and will be lower noise and better sounding than a lot of other consumer-level equipment. Digitech is pretty well known for its mediocre quality, and most people find their products to be noisy.

 

[danyeo1]

Well I tried the TC G-System with the ED and that was a total failure, on the G-Systems part. I tried a buffer and the thing sucks tone no matter what. If you increase the input level on the G-System it does help, but it also adds a lot of noise. Plus, with the 4CM the TC forces you to use the modulation effects block after preamp which is totally useless.

I might try a Digitech RP1000 because several people I know are reporting that it works great in the 4CM with most amps with NO tone suck, which i can't say for TC products. The RP is pretty much the same as the GSP1101.

 

[elvis]

Sorry it didn't work for you. I have a G system, and it took some work to set it up, but it does not alter the tone at all. I do agree that having to use the effects in the order that is dictated by the G system sucks. I solved that for me by adding phaser and flanger pedals in the pre-gain loops. That also lets me combine phase or flange with post-gain chorus, which is nice.

I don't know what buffer you used, or where you used it. I tried both a Valvulator (expensive) and a JFET buffer I built myself (less than $15), and both work well between the amp's FX send and the effect's loop input.

I spent a lot of time on the G system forum, and found that most often following Laird's white paper for setup worked. The biggest complaint with the G was too much noise with VERY high gain amps (like stuff from Diezel). I agree that the problem there is real, and I have seen it.

It's really easy to blame effects units for tone suck, but it's the interaction between the amp and the effects box, not the effects box. I've seen that proven many times. I have actually programmed electrical models and simulated it (I'm an engineer). It's very clear what the cause is, and it's very curable.

Do what works for you, but I hate to see people choose equipment based on voodoo like "tone suck". I'm happy to help anyone who is having trouble with their equipment. I did that a lot on the TC forum.

 

[fayat]

Hi everyone, and thanx for the answers.

I will try the buffer in the amp loop.

The fact is that, even if I loved TC stuff, The multi-fx work better in a preamp-FX-power amp combination ( I played this way for a while : V-twin, G major, 2:90, and founded it very good. But too heavy...).
With a loop ( I had before a Roadster head), I think that the multi FX is not as good in mono than in stereo.
When I write ToneSucker, everybody's doing it. It's just that the sound is really better without the TC in the loop.
Sometimes I'm asking to myself if the problem is not the boogie loops...
Well, to be continued !

 

[elvis]

I know that everyone talks about tone sucking. However, very few understand it,a nd it is misused terribly. I have seen it argued that the problem is the amp's FX loop (not just Mesa, almost every company has this problem). In my opinion it is a combination of the FX boxes and the amp loops.

For tube circuits, it is easiest to use a resistor divider from a preamp plate to give a line-level output. This gives a high impedance out, which is not a problem by itself, as long as it drives into a very high impedance. This will be totally fine if it drives into another tube stage (like the FX return, or a tube buffer like the Valvulator, or a tube power amp), and will also be fine if it drives into a good buffer, like a micro amp or EP Booster, or a simple JFET buffer that anyone can build. High impedance is anything that is 1 MegOhm or more.

Effects boxes are generally 40k Ohms or less input impedance. This does not work with high output impedance drivers like tube FX loops. The problem is that there are DC blocking capacitors, and the input impedance, output impedance and capacitor combine to create a lowpass filter that cuts high frequencies, and may also affect low frequencies. This is tone suck. It has nothing to do with ADCs, conversion, etc.

SECOND PROBLEM WITH LOOPS
Many loops are parallel, or series, but not 100% series. If you use an analog effect in a parallel or partially parallel loop, the dry signal in the amp is in parallel with the dry signal in the effect. The analog effect usually will not produce any significant delay in the dry signal, so they add back pretty well in-phase at the FX return.

For a DIGITAL effect, there is a slight delay of the dry signal. The dry signal is generally not changed, but it is late. This is because the digital system needs time to process the dry signal. In a 100% series loop, you won't notice that delay time. In a parallel or partially parallel loop, the delayed dry signal adds back to the non-delayed signal in the amp at the FX return. This is TERRIBLE. It creates a comb filter, which sounds a little like a flanger effect. This is not tone suck. It is a problem with the amp's loop.

There are two cures for this:
1. Run the digital effect with 100% wet and the amp's loop in parallel. This is OK, but often the delay in the digital processing is too much for subtle effects and it gets overwhelmed and sounds a bit odd.

2. Make the amp's loop 100% series. This works best, and it assumes that sending ALL of the guitar signal through the digital effects box is OK. Generally, that is true. The problem is that it is very difficult to get the amp's loop to be 100% series. The reason is that amp circuits often have parasitic paths that allow signal to bypass the loop inside the amp. The path may be in a circuit, or it may be because 1/2 of a preamp tube is used before the loop and the other half is used after the loop. This is called CROSSTALK, and it is almost always an issue in tube amps.

I'm waiting for my clothes dryer to finish, but even I'm getting bored with this. Go to the G System forum and get Laird Williams's white paper on G System setup. It describes all of this, as well as how to use the 4 cable method, reduce noise, etc. EVEN IF YOU DON'T USE A G SYSTEM, get it. The techniques apply to all processors.

 

[JOEY B.]

The ED, just like the Mark IIC+, is very quirky when it comes to the signal chain. ANYTHING in this chain will affect the tone of the guitar, no matter how it is wired. I use an Xotic RC Booster in front of my C+, anything else would be uncivilized. :wink:

 

[elvis]

Most people have posted that the Dyne takes pedals well. That has been my experience.

 

[wekiitoedzo]

Well as I previously mentioned i use the 2112 to get effects. Except the slight amount of noise which is not problem at live playing at all - it works perfect. This noise wont spoil your playing. However i did not experience tone sucking at all. By the way the dyne is very sensitive. Practicing in my manzard studio sometimes i can hear some radio or walkie-talkie noise coming through or ufo sound whatever or i just smoked too much
anyway the ED is a killer, and the GSP's also. On the 2112 you can set the input and output volume as well so you can fine tune it with your guitar volume.

 

[fayat]

Hi !
I finally got rid of the all-in-one rack effect processors (it's a turn over : I use pedals for years, then rack units, then pedals again, then racks... and today pedals again ).
I've sold my G-major 2 and I'm going to buy some Strymon pedals (there's a huge buzz around those floor effects).
I've noticed that the Dyne is very sensitive, and its sound can be affected by the effects you use in the loop. So I decided to invest money in few pedals but good ones. With a Real True bypass.
The sound of this amp is so nice when you're plugged straight in it, that I always was disappointed with my G-major. A little loss but too much anyway !
I'm gonna try the timeline first and will tell you my impressions.

 

[danyeo1]

The ED, just like the Mark IIC+, is very quirky when it comes to the signal chain. ANYTHING in this chain will affect the tone of the guitar, no matter how it is wired. I use an Xotic RC Booster in front of my C+, anything else would be uncivilized. :wink:

I've had great luck using the Electra Dyne with pretty much any pedal in the input or the FX loop. Only that piece of garbage G-System was a problem, and I tried using the Fractal Audio Axe-FX with 4cm with no luck, but it works fine in just the FX loop.

 

[ifailedshapes]

The TimeLine is a fantastic delay! I've used the TimeLine and Eventide TimeFactor delays with the Dyne, and both were great. Personally, I prefer Strymon's delays sounds over Eventide's. I'm currently using a TC Flashback X4, and while I love the sounds, I miss the control of the TimeLine/Factor. Sadly, money got a lot tighter in the past year, and I don't have an extra $200 for the TimeLine again.

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about true bypass. A good buffer is virtually transparent, and true bypass switches don't allow time-based effects like delay and reverb to trail off naturally.

Hi !
I finally got rid of the all-in-one rack effect processors (it's a turn over : I use pedals for years, then rack units, then pedals again, then racks... and today pedals again ).
I've sold my G-major 2 and I'm going to buy some Strymon pedals (there's a huge buzz around those floor effects).
I've noticed that the Dyne is very sensitive, and its sound can be affected by the effects you use in the loop. So I decided to invest money in few pedals but good ones. With a Real True bypass.
The sound of this amp is so nice when you're plugged straight in it, that I always was disappointed with my G-major. A little loss but too much anyway !
I'm gonna try the timeline first and will tell you my impressions.