Electra Dyne + Thiele cab!

[YellowJacket]

Electra Dyne owners / players:
I'm wondering if any of you have tried an Electra Dyne through a thiele cab?
I'm trying to decide what to do with my thiele right now. I have 2 g12m Heritage speakers in it, but I find the enclosure makes a bit of a parody of those speakers. The nasal upper mid crunch is accentuated to the point that they sound like G12T 75s without the scratchy high end, and effect I don't particularly like. It is irritating.

Since my build is off of the TL806 plans, my first order of business is to have the optional port covers fashioned and installed, since this will give a low frequency rolloff, something that is a requirement with an Electra Dyne.

The second thing is the speakers. Boogafunk specialized with TL806 cabs and he always said that high breakup speakers like greenbacks simply didn't work in thiele cabs. After a lot of experimentation, I am inclined to agree with him. I'm trying to decide whether to go with v30s, c90s, or a mix of both? The idea is to go with a tighter and more mid focused speaker since it should work well with the thiele. The other **option** would be to put EV12Ls in there but that is expensive and I don't know if I like that. The Goal is to have another cab besides the oversized one that will co-operate with the Electra Dyne. If anyone can try thiele cabs and comment, that would be appreciated.

 

[ryjan]

Eminence makes a "poor man's EV12L".
They're around $150 apiece.
Celestion G12K-100's work extremely well in thiele enclosures and handle 100 watts each with little cone breakup. You can find them cheap in old Fender and Crate cabs.

 

[J.J]

I have tried two ported cabs with my ED one very similar in spec to the thiele cab and a larger PA cab with a 15" speaker. Boomy anoying bass is the result. Having been playing through my 23" cab with the new closed in back for the last couple of weeks has proven to a pretty good match. I am finally getting that chest pounding bass that Mesa mention in the ED blurb. It's suprising me a lot. My 23" has a C90 in it.

I've also been experimenting with an open back 19" cab with a V30 in addition to the 23". That little cab's bass always waned in comparison to the larger 23" with a C90, but now it is the one with the loose bass. Despite a bit of boom, I am really liking the C90 V30 combination.

I'm not sure clossing the ports will help the mid range of the G12M that much. If it doesn't and you have a C90 and a V30 definately try them. I have noticed the ED can get a bit nasal in the upper mids as you mention. I think that is in its nature and not entirely to do with the speakers. What may help is backing off the gain one notch, backing the presence a notch or two and finally back the reverb off. The reverb realy does add a lot of upper mid and can make a surprising difference to tone balance.

 

[YellowJacket]

I have tried two ported cabs with my ED one very similar in spec to the thiele cab and a larger PA cab with a 15" speaker. Boomy anoying bass is the result. Having been playing through my 23" cab with the new closed in back for the last couple of weeks has proven to a pretty good match. I am finally getting that chest pounding bass that Mesa mention in the ED blurb. It's suprising me a lot. My 23" has a C90 in it.

This is exactly the biggest problem. You have to dial the bass WAY back to make it work. I also find that the enclosure makes a bit of a charicature of the Greenback tone. I don't like that much. It works better with a Dual Rectifer, which has a dip in the low mids. The bass of the Dual is also less fussy and easier to dial out.

I've also been experimenting with an open back 19" cab with a V30 in addition to the 23". That little cab's bass always waned in comparison to the larger 23" with a C90, but now it is the one with the loose bass. Despite a bit of boom, I am really liking the C90 V30 combination.

I'm not sure clossing the ports will help the mid range of the G12M that much. If it doesn't and you have a C90 and a V30 definately try them. I have noticed the ED can get a bit nasal in the upper mids as you mention. I think that is in its nature and not entirely to do with the speakers. What may help is backing off the gain one notch, backing the presence a notch or two and finally back the reverb off. The reverb realy does add a lot of upper mid and can make a surprising difference to tone balance.

Installing the optional port cover gives the cab a low frequency rolloff which it DESPERATELY needs. This will hopefully help it to be more usable for the Electra Dyne. With the Dual Rectifier, it sounds great in a band context.

I've been considering speakers and as far as I can tell, the c90 is the Celestion with the closest frequency response to the EVM 12L. Given that the Thiele is designed for the EVM 12L it would make sense why it imparts such a nasal quality onto the Greenbacks. Anyway, I've been thinking about my options and either 2 v30s or a v30 + c90s sounds best. 2 c90s would probably be too bassy. It is obviously tricky because I need a speaker that works with the cab but also 'hopefully' with the head. This may not be possible but I don't really want to be throwing money into new cabinetry right about now.

I'd go for an EVM 12L / whatever the Eminence is, but I'm not sure how that would mate with the Electra Dyne. If I had a Mark V, I'd have 2 EVM 12Ls in there SOO fast!!

 

[J.J]

I'm now running the bass up to 11:00 after closing my cab. The difference is night and day. With the cab open 8:30 to 9:00 was about as much as I could take.

I think 2x C90 would still work in a closed cab, the reason to use a V30 with a C90 for me is that both speakers complement each other. The C90 has loads of bass and the top end is clean and extended. Without a strong mid range it sounds a bit scooped compared to a V30 which is the opposite with less bass, Strong lower and upper mids (with more grit) and a rolled off top. Adding a V30 strangely seems to warm up the tone (probably the lower mids), but at the same time adds some good aggresion in the mids that were lacking with just a C90. A V30 by itself has to much "in your face upper mids" and that rolled off top end.

I don't have money to be trying all sorts of speakers either so I am experimenting and trying as many things as I can before I buy anything. My shop has an ED 2x12 cab which appears to be loaded with C90's. It looks similar to the 3/4 back design. I'm going to test it out next I go past as I had dismissed it in the past thinking it would be to bassy. I am almost hopping it won't work well because it's a 27" cab and I have a 23" head. I generally don't go by looks to much, but some things have to be right :mrgreen:

As for the EVM12L I wonder too if that would work with the ED and not be to honest for it. The V30 cone breakup (at any volume) in my opinion really adds to the sound. I not yet owned a Greenback of any form, but suspect I would love them for classic rock. If your not liking yours in your cab, I wonder if your cab is just to small for them. I tried closing the back of my 19" cab with the V30, but it sounded to constipated for me. I put that down to the cab just being to small. Perhaps I should try that cab with a C90 and closed back.

 

[YellowJacket]

I'm now running the bass up to 11:00 after closing my cab. The difference is night and day. With the cab open 8:30 to 9:00 was about as much as I could take.

I think 2x C90 would still work in a closed cab, the reason to use a V30 with a C90 for me is that both speakers complement each other. The C90 has loads of bass and the top end is clean and extended. Without a strong mid range it sounds a bit scooped compared to a V30 which is the opposite with less bass, Strong lower and upper mids (with more grit) and a rolled off top. Adding a V30 strangely seems to warm up the tone (probably the lower mids), but at the same time adds some good aggresion in the mids that were lacking with just a C90. A V30 by itself has to much "in your face upper mids" and that rolled off top end.

I totally agree. I have the v30 and c90 mix in my oversized 2 x 12 and the results were very epic. You get a bit more low mids than with v30s alone, but the Rebel Yell pickups in my Gibson Les Paul boosts the upper mids a bit so it really evens out. My brother agrees with me that this is pretty much the best we have ever heard my Dual Rec sound.

I don't have money to be trying all sorts of speakers either so I am experimenting and trying as many things as I can before I buy anything. My shop has an ED 2x12 cab which appears to be loaded with C90's. It looks similar to the 3/4 back design. I'm going to test it out next I go past as I had dismissed it in the past thinking it would be to bassy. I am almost hopping it won't work well because it's a 27" cab and I have a 23" head. I generally don't go by looks to much, but some things have to be right :mrgreen:

Agreed. When I first got my DR, I tried SO many speaker cabs with it. My favourites were the Stiletto 4 x 12 and the Marshall 1960ax. I really like greenbacks with a Dual Rectifier because it gives the amp such a creamy crunch. With the Electra Dyne, the AMP gives that characteristic to the sound so you can get away with a more modern tone. My favourite cab for an Electra Dyne is the Stiletto 4 x 12.
*IF* I had money to try speakers, I'd try the WGS Reaper HP. We put a couple of those in a thiele cab for my brother and they were absolutely phenomenal with the Dual Recto.

As for the EVM12L I wonder too if that would work with the ED and not be to honest for it. The V30 cone breakup (at any volume) in my opinion really adds to the sound. I not yet owned a Greenback of any form, but suspect I would love them for classic rock. If your not liking yours in your cab, I wonder if your cab is just to small for them. I tried closing the back of my 19" cab with the V30, but it sounded to constipated for me. I put that down to the cab just being to small. Perhaps I should try that cab with a C90 and closed back.

Well, I don't think that the thiele 2 x 12 is too small. It is basically the same size as a Recto 2 x 12. The real issue is that the thiele design -with the front vents, cleats, and shelf- is tuned for optimum response for an EVM12L which sounds A LOT MORE like a c90 than a Greenback. The Greenback is heavier in the low frequencies as well as the midrange and it has this characteristic almost nasal quality that is accentuated in the cab. I tried the thiele cab next to my peavey 1 x 12 when I had a greenback in it, and the thiele definitely sounds 'better'. It just doesn't seems to mesh with the Electra Dyne so well for my purposes. I'm sure there are people that would really like it though.

The port covers will not actually turn the cab into a closed design, at least not entirely. With the thiele, the vent is the width of the short side of the cab and it is about 2 inches high. There are two cleats that run the 2 inch width of the cab. So, you have three holes: 2 small ones on the outside of the vent and a larger one in the middle. The port cover seals the larger part of the vent off by fixing to the cleats which gives a low frequency rolloff and extends the bass response by a half an octave. You get a 6DB bass cut which is definitely not unsubstantial. I'll try this next week and hope for the best

 

[J.J]

Agreed. When I first got my DR, I tried SO many speaker cabs with it. My favourites were the Stiletto 4 x 12 and the Marshall 1960ax. I really like greenbacks with a Dual Rectifier because it gives the amp such a creamy crunch. With the Electra Dyne, the AMP gives that characteristic to the sound so you can get away with a more modern tone. My favourite cab for an Electra Dyne is the Stiletto 4 x 12.
*IF* I had money to try speakers, I'd try the WGS Reaper HP. We put a couple of those in a thiele cab for my brother and they were absolutely phenomenal with the Dual Recto.

I like that Stiletto 4x12 too, thats what was used the first time I got to play an ED. The 2x12 Stiletto is very nice too.

Well, I don't think that the thiele 2 x 12 is too small. It is basically the same size as a Recto 2 x 12. The real issue is that the thiele design -with the front vents, cleats, and shelf- is tuned for optimum response for an EVM12L which sounds A LOT MORE like a c90 than a Greenback. The Greenback is heavier in the low frequencies as well as the midrange and it has this characteristic almost nasal quality that is accentuated in the cab. I tried the thiele cab next to my peavey 1 x 12 when I had a greenback in it, and the thiele definitely sounds 'better'. It just doesn't seems to mesh with the Electra Dyne so well for my purposes. I'm sure there are people that would really like it though.

The port covers will not actually turn the cab into a closed design, at least not entirely. With the thiele, the vent is the width of the short side of the cab and it is about 2 inches high. There are two cleats that run the 2 inch width of the cab. So, you have three holes: 2 small ones on the outside of the vent and a larger one in the middle. The port cover seals the larger part of the vent off by fixing to the cleats which gives a low frequency rolloff and extends the bass response by a half an octave. You get a 6DB bass cut which is definitely not unsubstantial. I'll try this next week and hope for the best

OK, I'd assumed the 2x12 was along the lines of the usual Mesa compact Theile and that the port covers would completly close the box.

Personally I'm not a fan of the bass reflex using resonance to extend the bass output. Resonance = stored energy (takes time to ring up and back down) which blurs attatck and reduces definition. If your box tunning matches one of the room modes you can get some nasty peaks. My rooms first mode is around 35Hz which is not an issue with guitar, but the second mode at 70Hz can be. If I do hit one of the modes the room fills with an anoying drone. I'd guess my closed box is rolling off by 100hz or so, but since the roll off is gentle the room modes help extend the bass. So a closed box can work better than you would normally expect. I need to get that cab out and make sure it works in more places than just my music room though :mrgreen: I am know that a closed cab will be less room dependant than an open cab and probably better than a ported cab too, in terms of consistancy. I really hate going somewhere and having to fight the amp to get my basic tone.

 

[YellowJacket]

I like that Stiletto 4x12 too, thats what was used the first time I got to play an ED. The 2x12 Stiletto is very nice too.

Agreed. Hands down the best cab for that Head.

OK, I'd assumed the 2x12 was along the lines of the usual Mesa compact Theile and that the port covers would completly close the box.

Personally I'm not a fan of the bass reflex using resonance to extend the bass output. Resonance = stored energy (takes time to ring up and back down) which blurs attatck and reduces definition. If your box tunning matches one of the room modes you can get some nasty peaks. My rooms first mode is around 35Hz which is not an issue with guitar, but the second mode at 70Hz can be. If I do hit one of the modes the room fills with an anoying drone. I'd guess my closed box is rolling off by 100hz or so, but since the roll off is gentle the room modes help extend the bass. So a closed box can work better than you would normally expect. I need to get that cab out and make sure it works in more places than just my music room though :mrgreen: I am know that a closed cab will be less room dependant than an open cab and probably better than a ported cab too, in terms of consistancy. I really hate going somewhere and having to fight the amp to get my basic tone.

See, this is where I disagree. I personally think room sound is the leading major cause of gas. You get the gear out for jamming or performing and it sounds right because you are no longer stuck in a small practice hole. Wood Sheds / Studios / Music Rooms/ or whatever you choose to cause your practice space is a place for working chops, not obsessing over tone. It is awesome how jamming with a band can really give an idea how gear REALLY sounds. How loud do you practice? I'd NEVER want to crank a tube amp in a 12 foot by 8 foot room!!!!

I've never had a problem with tightness with the thiele cab. In fact, it is much tighter and clearer than certain 4 x 12s. The Rectocab comes to mind. Those small vents are much quicker than the uber maxed air volume of the aforementioned monstrosity. (I kid, kind of) There is a problem with UBER BASS though, and that is when the head in question also puts out UBER BASS. I'm hoping the low frequency rolloff is enough that the Electra Dyne can co-operate with the thiele. I also think the appropriate speakers will help things out substantially. My issue is really with how the TL806 cab colours tone. You listen to a video of the EVM 12L in a generic close backed cab and it really is a flat and wide sounding speaker. When you hear it in the TL806 cab it really takes on some of that crunchy midrange bark that you'd normally associate with G12m 25s or G12T 75s. This is GREAT for the EVM 12L but not so great for a speaker that tends to have that sort of a tonal character from the get go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0sa7tlfI @ 1:51

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI7YhEof0Dk @ 1:24

Or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpp9ZUFfMKs

I hope this makes sense.

 

[J.J]

I think I understand what your saying.

I am a bit spoiled in that my music room is not 12 x 8 its more like 16 x 32, not much smaller than some of the places we play. So my room is normally not to far off what I get when out. What prompted me to look into my speaker setup is improving my live tone and making it more consistant from place to place. With the open cab the louder I get the worse it sounds.

I'll be interested to hear how you go with your thiele. I've always liked that Rivera speaker demo even though I don't like ported cabs :?

 

[YellowJacket]

I think I understand what your saying.

I am a bit spoiled in that my music room is not 12 x 8 its more like 16 x 32, not much smaller than some of the places we play. So my room is normally not to far off what I get when out. What prompted me to look into my speaker setup is improving my live tone and making it more consistant from place to place. With the open cab the louder I get the worse it sounds.

I'll be interested to hear how you go with your thiele. I've always liked that Rivera speaker demo even though I don't like ported cabs :?

I agree with you in that generally, close back cabs are best. The idea with a Thiele is to get a HUGE tone with a small box and it generally works. Like I said, I just don't like how the box colours greenbacks. I'll most likely try the v30 and c90 combo first, after I call Mesa and ask a few questions.

What I LIKE about the thiele design is that the vent is on the front, which makes the cab sound 'open' for clean but 'directional and crunchy' for chording. I also find turning the 2 x 12 up on its side is best for live since it drastically cuts down the bass response. I have also found it often sounds excellent live and is only really bothersome when I am practicing on it.

[edit] If I use a c90 and a v30, Do you think it would work to completely seal off the v30 side of the box and use the port cover on the c90 to roll off the lows a bit? Bear in mind that my thiele is two separate enclosures in the same box! There will be an INCREDIBLE amount of tuning that I can do. I could even leave only one quarter of the vent open too if I wanted to.

I just noticed that the internal volume of each enclosure is quite small and I don't know if it would be good for the speakers... Anyway, I at least have some options to try here!

 

[J.J]

I agree with you in that generally, close back cabs are best. The idea with a Thiele is to get a HUGE tone with a small box and it generally works. Like I said, I just don't like how the box colours greenbacks. I'll most likely try the v30 and c90 combo first, after I call Mesa and ask a few questions.

Yeah, closed is most versatile. I tried to make my open cab work and for when I'm playing blues with a Strat I prefer it, but in a band playing a wider variety of music I just had to concede and switch to closed. When I do eventually figure out what to get I will return my cab to open back.

What I LIKE about the thiele design is that the vent is on the front, which makes the cab sound 'open' for clean but 'directional and crunchy' for chording. I also find turning the 2 x 12 up on its side is best for live since it drastically cuts down the bass response. I have also found it often sounds excellent live and is only really bothersome when I am practicing on it.

Getting speakers up higher is a great trick. I think that since the higher frequencies are more directional, getting them closer to your ears brings the balance back. I'd really like a vertical 2x12 like the Recto, but more along the lines of a Stiletto or Road King.

[edit] If I use a c90 and a v30, Do you think it would work to completely seal off the v30 side of the box and use the port cover on the c90 to roll off the lows a bit? Bear in mind that my thiele is two separate enclosures in the same box! There will be an INCREDIBLE amount of tuning that I can do. I could even leave only one quarter of the vent open too if I wanted to.

I just noticed that the internal volume of each enclosure is quite small and I don't know if it would be good for the speakers... Anyway, I at least have some options to try here!

Its really hard to know exactly what will happen, but I think it is worth trying. I'd even try sealing the C90 and the V30 or having the C90 closed and the V30 ported just to see. Should be easy enough to try.

The Stiletto 2x12 is quite small and its diemension is only really big enough to get the 2 V30s in. This makes me think that sealing one side of your box will work fine. If I remember correctly, as box size decreases the box tunning is raised. So it may give the V30 a bit more bass where it needs it, or not :lol: .

Iv'e been curious about the Road King 2x12 for a while. Would it still work with the C90 closed and the V30 open ?

 

[YellowJacket]

Yeah, closed is most versatile. I tried to make my open cab work and for when I'm playing blues with a Strat I prefer it, but in a band playing a wider variety of music I just had to concede and switch to closed. When I do eventually figure out what to get I will return my cab to open back.

For sure. It is about having all the tools you need for the job, at least this is what I think...

Getting speakers up higher is a great trick. I think that since the higher frequencies are more directional, getting them closer to your ears brings the balance back. I'd really like a vertical 2x12 like the Recto, but more along the lines of a Stiletto or Road King.

Ya. I really like angled 4 x 12s because they work so well as a monitor. As for 2 x 12s, the best invention one can make is a stand to get them off of the ground. Ultimately, the guitar amp usually functions as a monitor for the PA. Sometimes I really wonder why we go to all this work mixing speakers when soundmen usually end up close micing one speaker and you hear the speaker more than the cab.

Its really hard to know exactly what will happen, but I think it is worth trying. I'd even try sealing the C90 and the V30 or having the C90 closed and the V30 ported just to see. Should be easy enough to try.

The Stiletto 2x12 is quite small and its diemension is only really big enough to get the 2 V30s in. This makes me think that sealing one side of your box will work fine. If I remember correctly, as box size decreases the box tunning is raised. So it may give the V30 a bit more bass where it needs it, or not :lol: .

Iv'e been curious about the Road King 2x12 for a while. Would it still work with the C90 closed and the V30 open ?

I LOVE the Road King 2 x 12. User DWAKO swears by it for the Electra Dyne. I think the tone would change reversing the c90 and v30. It may or may not work, you'd have to try it.

I'll definitely get some port covers fashioned and I'll start experimenting. I'm not going to make a hasty decision on the cab though. I'm going to try both cabs with the band and see what tone THEY like. I need to hear them in the mix instead of my 8' by 12" room. This will be far more telling... At any rate, the port covers are a MUST since less lows is better. The only other option is to turn the bass on the head WAY down which is ultimately a better option for 2 20watt speakers. Decisions, decisions!!

There is a spare v30 at my parents place. Perhaps I need to get that sent out here. Then I would only need one c90.

[Edit] Electra Dyne with Godin LG and oversized 2 x 12 c90 + v30 sounds great. Gain trim switch was set to normal with the volume up about 1:30. I have a Seymour Duncan Alnico II pro in the neck and a Custom Custom in the bridge. No booming or mud problems whatsoever. Great note separation.

Definitely really wanting to try the c90 / v30 combo in the thiele. Also going to play with different port covers. I think I'll get two covers that completely seal the ports and two that operate the cab in step down mode.