Early Recto Tone Test: #29 RF-C vs. #339 RF-D-Winner is...??

[Elpelotero]

I did round one yesterday....very interesting finds! Stay tuned for an update today!

 

[bluntage]

Cool! Please be posting your findings!

 

[Elpelotero]

Ok, THE RESULTS ARE IN!!!!!


And the winner is...............NEITHER ONE!

The variables:
same guitar, pick, cables, cab, speakers, SAME EXACT TUBES PULLED OUT OF ONE AND INTO THE OTHER, SAME SETTINGS, VERY LOUD VOLUMES (output at 12, channel masters at 930-1030), Tubes were stock Mesa 12Ax7 and stock Mesa str420's. Also stock mesa 5u4g rectifier tubes. FLAT SETTINGS ALL AROUND!

On the back panel: Rectifier Tubes and Bold setting. (my favorite). all tubes in place for a full 100 watts.

So everything was the same! Nothing to possibly change anything. I sat in the same corner of the room also and played the amps within 5-10 minutes of each other. Played each amp for about 10-20 minutes.

RF-C #29:
Out of the box, this amp is incredibly bright and tight. It is almost too bright to make it harsh. The leads are ridiculously smooth. Very creamy! The amp is very aggressive, due in part to its brightness.

Rf-D #339:
Out of the box, it is a lot smoother than the other one. Not a night and day difference, but enough for me to notice it withing a few minutes. The chords sit a lot fatter and display that classic Mesa cascading gain. This amp did not do so well in the leads. It is also an aggressive amp, but it's smoother.

***********************HOWEVER**********************
All I had to do for one amp to mimic the other was move the Presence pot 45degrees one or the other. Thus, the only difference between these amps lies in the setting of the presence pot. This confirms what another forumite here posted a couple of weeks ago!

On #29 RF-C, by moving the presence down, it instanly gets a lot smoother and fatter on the chords. However, the leads lose their creaminess. It sounds exactly like the RF-D.

On #339 RF-D, by moving the presence up, it instantly gets a little more "brash" and tighter. The leads become creamier than caramel! It also turns into a carbon copy of RF-C.

MORAL of the STORY: The amps are the same, except for the placement of the presence. If you want to get smooth leads, move the presence up. If you want fat chords, move it down. Other than this, there is no audible difference between these two versions! So you are good getting either version!

Enjoy!

 

[disassembled]

I don't mean to rain on your parade here but your test doesn't really show anything and the change in presence was probably from your ears being fatigued. After about 4 minutes of blaringly loud noise your ears get fatigued so 20 minutes is more than long enough to do that. It is hard to remember something as difficult to pinpoint differences in tone between the same amp, essentially. I am not saying you don't know what you're saying or that you are wrong in your assessment but it just leaves so many variables up in the air.

With that being said, the only true test would be to record a sample with one amp and another with the other amp. This way you can A/B the samples instantaneously (which makes a huge difference) as well as share your results with the rest of the world.

When i get my 2:90 power amp I would like to do a similar test with the 20/20 power amp since so many people want to know if the weight reduction is worth it.


Would it be possible to record a sample and show everyone the results?

Greg

 

[Elpelotero]

well, not only did i notice it yesterday, but my friend who was playing with me also noticed it. Not to mention, another forumite noticed it a couple of weeks ago. I know about ear fatigue, and this was not it. I did the test twice and both times got the same results. things like tightness, fatness, and the actual feel of smoothness in notes when playing leads aren't due to things like ear fatigue. i've played my #339 many times before this so I know its sound like the back of my hand. #29 is a lot brighter right away and it's noticeable within 1-2 minutes, well before ear fatigue could possibly settle in. I understand what you are trying to say, but you're just going to have to trust me on this one.

my friend has a protools rig but he wouldn't be interested in recording something like this. it's also difficult to bring his whole rig over here. extra variables like mic placement would take effect...Again, I'm not saying I have Eric Johnson's ears, but the things I'm talking about are easily distinguishable. The other guy who I was playing with had never heard a Mesa in person and he was able to notice it also. I played the 339 first, which is the darker one, and then the brighter 29 after. If we had ear fatigue (which I'm sure we had some), how would we have been able to notice the second amp as being brighter? It would have made sense if we played the brighter amp first and then played the darker amp.

 

[Elpelotero]

siggy14
Mark III


Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 273

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:00 am Post subject:
Do you know exactly what the tonal difference is suppose to be. Because my R0005 is alot more bright, more like a SLO and very good for soloing, this is the C of course.

My R0394 is darker sounding, a bit more distortion and better for rythem, this is a D. They are both very tight, however in order to get my 394 to sounds like my R0005 I have to turn the presense up to half way and treble around 1PM. My settings on the R0005 are no presense and treble around 12.

I have a ractifier coming in next week, not an early one, it will have the 1F board in it, so I will compare again to see how much of a difference there is.


Boogiebabies wrote:
There is no RF-1C schematic at Mesa. The RF-1D is almost identical, but there is no schematic available for it either. Both do not differ very much from the F. The most I have gotten was a hand drawn copy from George Mueller of the differences between the 1C,D and F. The main difference was only in the switching buss for the input fot the clean and lead channels. The tonal difference is from a slight change in what value capacitors/resistors that were used before the guitar tone hit the lead channel circuit. I have it somewhere, but I have not been able to find it yet. I have waaaaaaaay too many schematics and articles. If I find it, I will be happy to scan it. Unless you blueprint the entire amp yourself, I do not think t will be of any real value. It would be a dizzying task.

+1

 

[Boogiebabies]

You can't +1 yourself !!!

The change in presence could simply be the taper of the pot.

All I can say is that the RF-1C has a solo voice unlike any of the other 10 Dual Rectifiers I have owened. It truly is a Solo Head. I also find it to be tighter than other DR's, especially in Red mode. It's a scary amplifier.

 

[Elpelotero]

well I'm +1ing Siggy's post that he made a while back. I'm just saying I noticed the same things. It is a Solo amplifier! Rev D turned it into a rhythm amplifier. It only becomes a Solo Head once you up the Presence.

 

[siggy14]

Actually think about your statement.

First he played is first one for 10 to 20 minutes, so yes his ears are fatigued, but then with less then ten minutes he switched to the second one. Keep in mind his ears are still fatigued, so the last sound he heard with the first amp was with fatigued ears, and the first sound he heard with the second one was with fatigued ears, so basically your argument just flew out the door.

Now I am not starting a fight here, so please dont take it that way, but basically it is not a slight difference, it is alot, difference between night and day untill you crank that presense knob up. Just trust us, you will have to own both to understand.

I don't mean to rain on your parade here but your test doesn't really show anything and the change in presence was probably from your ears being fatigued. After about 4 minutes of blaringly loud noise your ears get fatigued so 20 minutes is more than long enough to do that. It is hard to remember something as difficult to pinpoint differences in tone between the same amp, essentially. I am not saying you don't know what you're saying or that you are wrong in your assessment but it just leaves so many variables up in the air.

With that being said, the only true test would be to record a sample with one amp and another with the other amp. This way you can A/B the samples instantaneously (which makes a huge difference) as well as share your results with the rest of the world.

When i get my 2:90 power amp I would like to do a similar test with the 20/20 power amp since so many people want to know if the weight reduction is worth it.


Would it be possible to record a sample and show everyone the results?

Greg

 

[siggy14]

It is either a taper pot or a resister coming in on the input of the modern channel. I didnt notice a heck of alot of difference on the orange channels between the two. However the clean on the later R0394 seemed just slighty better.

You can't +1 yourself !!!

The change in presence could simply be the taper of the pot.

All I can say is that the RF-1C has a solo voice unlike any of the other 10 Dual Rectifiers I have owened. It truly is a Solo Head. I also find it to be tighter than other DR's, especially in Red mode. It's a scary amplifier.

 

[siggy14]

+1 my R0005 is a solo machine, but i could (sold the amp to a friend) get the R0394 to the same spot, i just have to have the presense around 12 oclock and the treble around 1 oclock, where on the the R0005 the presense is on 6:00 oclock ( zero )and the treble is on 12 Oclock

It is a Solo amplifier! Rev D turned it into a rhythm amplifier. It only becomes a Solo Head once you up the Presence.

 

[siggy14]

See and now to throw you all into a loop, i noticed that my ractifier (probally revision G) is a mix between my R0005 and my old R0394. However it is not as tight as the two older ones, but close enough that you wouldnt be able to tell unless you were doing a side by side.

 

[Elpelotero]

I apologize to anyone who read my posts and got rubbed the wrong way. It was not my intention at all. I was just to prove a point that there is indeed a difference...

Now, on to the cool stuff! Yes Siggy, the cleans on the D are much better. I have to struggle a lot to get something resembling a clean tone out of the C. As for matching the two, like I said, I only need to up the presence to about 1:30 on the D to get the same smooth creamy feel as I do on the C at flat presence. The C was definitely the original and true "Solo Head."

 

[Boogiebabies]

The tone stack for the Orange and Red channel use the same 47K slope resistor. The presence on the Orange channel is a negative feedback loop and the presence on the Red channel is no negative feedback at all. That's were is gets it's agressive attack and bottom end. The presence pot on the Red is nothing more than and extra tone stack control that adds higher treble frequencies than the stock treble pot. It's like a Depth mod always on full. As far as the clean channel, the original miniature owners manual states that you will have better results running the clean in Red mode for no negative feedback and a better signal to noise ratio. As far as Recto cleans in general, I never used them. Other than MK series amps with EQ's I have never been totally satisfied with the Mesa cleans other than the MK IVB and Mesa's best clean ever in the RK II, derived from the Lone Star. Every time I plug in the RK II clean, I only want to veg out and play Sultans of Swing.

 

[Boogiebabies]

I apologize to anyone who read my posts and got rubbed the wrong way. It was not my intention at all. I was just to prove a point that there is indeed a difference...

Now, on to the cool stuff! Yes Siggy, the cleans on the D are much better. I have to struggle a lot to get something resembling a clean tone out of the C. As for matching the two, like I said, I only need to up the presence to about 1:30 on the D to get the same smooth creamy feel as I do on the C at flat presence. The C was definitely the original and true "Solo Head."

Miguel,

I would never apologize unless I made a mistake. An opinion is your right and you are entitled to it on this public forum. Other members have the right to disagree, but when they start buying your amps and paying for your tuition, then you can apologize.

You should be very proud of how far you have come in the understanding of ways of the force. I am personally proud of how much you have learned about amps since we met.

Eduardo

 

[Russ]

So a 2 ch dual can mimic prior revisions? Is this possible across the serial to parallel revision change also? As far as the cleans getting better how much better and how is the gain and tone affected otherwise for the rest of the amp? I am intrigued here.

 

[Elpelotero]

So a 2 ch dual can mimic prior revisions? Is this possible across the serial to parallel revision change also? As far as the cleans getting better how much better and how is the gain and tone affected otherwise for the rest of the amp? I am intrigued here.

No...it can't be taken that far. The transformers on the first 500 are different, which alone will account for a change in tone. The two revisions within the first 500 can be mimiced to sound like each other.

The better cleans is very miniscule. They are still horrid! It's like going from a $50 10watt Crate practice amp to a $110 25watt practice amp. The gain is not affected at all.

 

[Russ]

Ok so the transformers are the key. This makes sense. I still need to hear them side by side to really get a feel for the difference.

What exactly does a Crate sound like? I have never played one. I remember seeing guys playing some of their tube heads back in the day and they sounded so-so. I have never played their practice amps. Please tell me what I am missing.

 

[Elpelotero]

haha I only said Crate because people like to bash them as being the worst of all amps out there. My friend had a small Crate amp and it sucked really bad. There was no change in tone when you turned the knobs!


To compare C and D side by side is not really necessary to get a feel. As I said, the differences are subtle and can be fixed so the amps sound the same.

I would like to hear a Revision F, the Racktifier. I think Siggy is the only guy who can do this!

 

[Russ]

Maybe I will plug into a Crate next time I go to GC just for SH!TS and giggles.