Dumb question, but why does it feel like Recto's "Need" a boost or OD to sound best?

[sean106ESP]

So bare with me here.

I used to own some Recto's in the late 90's. First one was a Rectoverb. Then in the 2000's I mained a Diezel Vh4 and then for about 10 years a mained a Mesa Mark V. Recently I got a new Vh4 and also a brand new 50th Anniversary Dual Rectifier. Love my Vh4 but it's in the shop (go figure lol)

I have not used a new recto in so many years and really enjoying this one so far.

So like most, I bought a TS9 as a boost in the front. Before buying it, I was having fun watching a ton of tone videos and it seemed like almost ALL Recto users had a TS9, 808 etc. or some sort of boost/OD in the front. I use all ESP custom shop guitars with EMG 60/81's and one Gibson Les Paul Custom shop aged guitar.

So my question is this. Why is it so hard to dial in a great overdrive tone for metal/Djent/chug chug type stuff without having a OD or boost in the front? (or I may just suck at dialing this thing in... as my VH4 is too easy to dial in :lol: ) I am in LOVE with the clean channel on the new multiwatt Dual Recto. WAY better clean channel than my VH4.

I feel like the amp alone without the boost flubs out too much whether I add gain (which I don't like to add much to be frank, I like a clean rhythm articulate palm mute chug), or roll back the bass etc.

Perhaps I need to mess more with spongy/bold and the diodes/tube tracking?

I was wondering for prog/metal etc. (I guess you can say metallica Rhythm playing in terms of riffing and palm muting that is clear and punchy, what are your settings? Settings in terms of channel 3, EQ on the front, diodes or tube tracking etc.

Any pictures too of your settings for channel 3 or 2 would be great WITHOUT a boost. Just curious what your fav settings are with a stock new Recto. Like I said, it's not an older modded one. Simply a brand new one out of the box.

 

[silentbob]

Because you have too much bass and not enough mids. Adding a TS style boost will add mids and cut bass slightly, in addition to feeding more signal overall to the amp.

 

[sean106ESP]

But in general it feels like no matter what you need a boost or pedal.

As I mentioned above. Even when I roll back the bass and start to up the gain...it tends to want to flub out.

Thanks.

 

[CoG]

I don't find my Tremoverb head needs a boost. I play pretty loud (not that I have a choice with a 100W TOV head!) and I find that it tightens up at volume and I always need less gain than I think. I do use one sometimes for flavor, but I think the big thing is that people are trying to use too much preamp gain at too low a volume. Every amp sounds flubby like that except Marks.

Put it on Bold and Silicon and turn that **** up

 

[sean106ESP]

Thanks man.

Yeah I found some pictures somewhere in a YT video where they had awesome tone with modern channel 3, snapped a picture and started using those settings and it sounds MUCH better.

No I use the boost TS9 for well...a boost or when I switch to passives as they tend to flub to my ears. I have all EMG's in my ESP custom shops.

 

[dlpasco]

I always figured that it was a way to allow the amp to cover a few more genres. Without a boost, in spongy mode, it's great for hard rock like Queen. WITH a boost and full power it's ready to go for brutal, tight tracking metal.

I like using it both ways a lot.

 

[Petit scarabé]

So bare with me here.

I used to own some Recto's in the late 90's. First one was a Rectoverb. Then in the 2000's I mained a Diezel Vh4 and then for about 10 years a mained a Mesa Mark V. Recently I got a new Vh4 and also a brand new 50th Anniversary Dual Rectifier. Love my Vh4 but it's in the shop (go figure lol)

I have not used a new recto in so many years and really enjoying this one so far.

So like most, I bought a TS9 as a boost in the front. Before buying it, I was having fun watching a ton of tone videos and it seemed like almost ALL Recto users had a TS9, 808 etc. or some sort of boost/OD in the front. I use all ESP custom shop guitars with EMG 60/81's and one Gibson Les Paul Custom shop aged guitar.

So my question is this. Why is it so hard to dial in a great overdrive tone for metal/Djent/chug chug type stuff without having a OD or boost in the front? (or I may just suck at dialing this thing in... as my VH4 is too easy to dial in :lol: ) I am in LOVE with the clean channel on the new multiwatt Dual Recto. WAY better clean channel than my VH4.

I feel like the amp alone without the boost flubs out too much whether I add gain (which I don't like to add much to be frank, I like a clean rhythm articulate palm mute chug), or roll back the bass etc.

Perhaps I need to mess more with spongy/bold and the diodes/tube tracking?

I was wondering for prog/metal etc. (I guess you can say metallica Rhythm playing in terms of riffing and palm muting that is clear and punchy, what are your settings? Settings in terms of channel 3, EQ on the front, diodes or tube tracking etc.

Any pictures too of your settings for channel 3 or 2 would be great WITHOUT a boost. Just curious what your fav settings are with a stock new Recto. Like I said, it's not an older modded one. Simply a brand new one out of the box.

What do you think of my mod on this blackstar ht5? great chug machine with a lot of b*lls.
I don't add tubes in that ht5. It remained a hybrid distortion. (aop with one 12ax7)





Low gain (2/10)

 

[meesa_jarjar]

I remember reading way back when that they were going for a medium-gain rock / blues sound, and it was a complete accident that it caught on for tha brootz. One thing they did was include resistors inline with the cathode bypass caps which reduces gain from the original SLO design. They also reduced the gain pot resistance value and the rest of the brightening circuit around it on the Rev G which also reduces gain. These changes alone can account for the need to push it with a boost to get it saturated.

 

[Willy_Wonka]

Depends what tone you’re going for. I have a Triple 2-ch and straight in it’s killer. But I love that 90s early 2000s wall of sound tone. Massive low end.

 

[Neptical]

Not just Rectos - I use every amp with an OD (SD-1 in my case) and an MXR 10 Band EQ.

Typically, I'll make sure the amp provides an exceptional base tone to work from. Once that's established, I know between EQ and OD that I'll have something really nice worked out as end result tone.

IMHO - Two very powerful tools to keep in the shed ( OD/EQ).

 

[Manehead]

I don’t use a boost, and I don’t really miss one. The multi watt definitely needs it less than the older 3ch.

My ch3 settings are:
modern|bold|diode
presence: 9:00
master: 10:00
gain: 1:30
bass:7:30
mid: 10:00
treble: 12:30

Few things to note:
1. The channel master is actually a powerful eq. Below 9:00 it will scoop your mids, as you increase it to 12:00 and beyond it will add in more mids and mid range girth. Use it as another tone control and balance the volume with the output control.
2. The cab makes a difference. I have the Mesa 2x12, which is tighter than a 4x12, but has less pronounced mids. That also helps to reduce any flubby tendencies.
3. Preamp valves. I’ve spent a fair amount of time and effort tube rolling, and have settled on a combination that reduces fizz while tightening up the low end and makes the mid range more articulate (I find a mushy and congested mid range is the biggest problem with the dual rec tone rather than the fizz or the low end, or at least it’s the hardest to dial out)

 

[bandit2013]

You may not understand the circuits used in the Rectifier but the bottom line is the cold clipper circuit. This has been called the SLO mod (it is just a resistor change and is a trivial thing, Marshall uses a 10k ohm cathode resistor, SLO and DR use a 39k ohm cathode resistor). So this cold clipper circuit is responsible for creating the sub harmonic content you hear. May as well call it a SWAMP thing. It is not the tone stack that is responsible for this sub harmonic content. It is caused by the non-linear nature of the triode and operating it near its diode region.

Boosting with OD on the front end aids in reduction of the low frequencies of the guitar signal so there is less low end to generate the sub harmonic content related to the cold clipper circuit.

With the MWDR, I found that when using the amp at a reduced volume increases this sub harmonic content. Push the amp a bit more into gig level it will not be as apparent but will still be present. So when palm muting it will sound muddy. The Roadster has more low end content compared to the MWDR.

I have yet to try any of the OD suggestions. Perhaps I should.

At least the Badlander does not do this sub harmonic swamp. It too has a cold clipper circuit and the preamp is very much similar to the MWDR with a few exceptions. The cold clipper cathode resistor is a 15k ohm. Much closer to that of the Marshall 2204). I should not have brought this one up as it is different than the traditional Rectifier amp.

Not sure if there is a way to alter the sub harmonics with a preamp tube swap. In most cases with the traditional Dual Rectifier amps, it is one of the triodes used by V2. It is usually the gain stage before the last gain stage + cathode follower tone stack driver V3.

I know, this does not answer anything.

 

[bjosephs]

So my question is this. Why is it so hard to dial in a great overdrive tone for metal/Djent/chug chug type stuff without having a OD or boost in the front?

The answer is that achieving those tones requires a very specific balance of low, mid, and high frequency energy before the distortion stages. That balance is very much affected by the guitar and play style and very few amps give you any tone shaping tools pre-distortion. The Mark series is the most famous example and it’s no secret that it was popular for tight, high-gain metal. The Rectifier was not voiced to compete with the Mark series.

The classic OD to use is the tube screamer. The TS had a very unique feature in that the gain is essentially applied only within a midrange band starting above ~700Hz. This allows you to set your amp gain knob for the right level of bounce and compression on low notes and palm mutes and then get the saturation you need in the mids/highs with the boost pedal.

None of this is mandatory and differences in amps and guitarist/pickups means it’s also not consistent. I have a Series 2 single rectifier and with Fishman pickups it’s almost tight enough for me at modest gain levels.

Very much a YMMV scenario but the basic answer is that many OD pedals are also simplified EQ pedals and getting good high-gain tone is a frequency shaping task.

 

[Jorn218]

The answer is that they don’t. The interaction of the tone controls with the global volume master and channel masters can dial in a fantastic tone that is very percussive.

 

[tbonesullivan]

Another answer is that the Dual Rectifier Solo Head came out in Early 1992. That's well before "Djent" really became a thing. It wasn't designed for that type of music. People who loved the sound but wanted tighter bass did what people have done since the dawn of rock: put a pedal / booster in front to change the overdrive character.

In my mind, the "classic" rectifier is smooth lead notes with a lot of compression and sustain, some rectifier "squish", and bass from the depths of hell. Think black album era Metallica and similar. "Tight downtuned chug" doesn't really fit the definition of what the Solo Head was conceived to be. The Badlander is the first amp in the series that IS designed to be that, IMHO.

 

[bandit2013]

Sure, the Badlander is great for standard 6 string or dropped tunes, Also works well with the 7 string.

I had some difficulty with the MWDR and Roadster with the 7 string guitars. Primarily due to the cold clipper sub harmonic content it creates. Love the MWDR as is without change, it screams with the STR440 gray bias color power tubes. I tried the STR445 (green bias color) borrowed from the Mark VII and was not overly impressed. I did get some other STR445 in the yellow bias color range. Tried them, it was ok, preferred the STR440 gray for some reason.

Now for the Roadster. I discovered something quite different with this one. I have experimented with some different preamp tubes that sounded great but it still had that low end drone and not compatible with 7 string guitars until I tried some old Mesa tubes from the 1990 I had on hand. The Chinese Square Foil getter tubes, aka 6N4-J which was a Military grade tube for ECC83, 12AX7, 7025. I also have some I bought from Doug's Tubes sold by Ruby tubes. I used a Mesa in V1 and loaded the rest of the amp with the Ruby versions. Holy crap, what a huge difference that made. The only tube that remained in the stock Mesa (JJ ECC83) was that for the reverb. I also have a Mullard long plate reissue in the phase inverter (has a fuller tone than the Sovtek LPS). STR440 reds or yellows, this amp now became highly compatible with the 7-string guitar. It still has that darkness with the CH2, CH4 but no more drowning in the low-end sub harmonic range. I can still hear the lower frequencies but it is much tighter in character. As a request, I tried the STR445 yellow bias color and what an animal this amp became. I did loose that 7-string compatibility though. It was much better with the STR440 reds or yellows. STR445 yellows were a bit too much, feel that the reds would cut some of that power tube distortion a bit. I went back to the STR440 reds as I like using the 7 string, it just sounds sinister. I thought that would never be possible. Preamp tubes can be a good thing and the Chinese tubes will last in the cathode follower circuits too. Good luck trying to find any of the Square Foil Beijing tubes though. They sort of became hard to find.

Never boosted my Rectos. I did try the grid slammer, just did not get that OMG sound. Not fond of that transistor distortion characteristic all that much. Tried a few a couple of years ago only to return them.