Do Tubes Make that much of a Difference

[BeltFedRiffs]

Ok so I have 2 Mesa Roadsters laying around and both are loaded with different tubes. One is completely loaded with Mesa Branded Tubes (6L6)- the other is a set from Dougs Tubes (6L6) match quad with a mix match going on in the pre-amp section.
So I decided to throw together a quick compare/contrast to see how vast or how little of a difference tube brands and if chassing the rabbit of tone down the hole of tubes and tube selection- if its worth it or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmGTB0JXlzg

Id like to know what you guys think- and if there is some crazy tube combo's that have blown you away- such as the KT66 or KT88's? I was open to trying out all these but after how little of a difference I noted not really that enthused about spending that kind of money for a marginal difference.

 

[nismofreakish]

If I'm not misled, Mesa stock poweramp tubes are Rubys rebranded, at least in the Roadster.

I personaly own a Roadster, and while the Rubys made a great difference in my Single Rectifier, they didn't at all in my Roadster. I couldn't see the difference either. But the JJs 6L6s I now have in my Roadster do make a huge difference, it's night and day. The only other tube I swapped was the V1 to put a Tungsol and it made a difference too. I had to reEQ my amp afterwards, but since then it "breathes" a lot more, is more articulate.

 

[BeltFedRiffs]

Correct- from my understanding Mesa has a system they do in which then they brand certain tubes as their own- so your more than likely correct about the origins of said tubes. I can see some validity in swapping the V1 to a Tung-Sol but even then the difference for me in my small world is so small its almost negligible.
You mentioned you now run JJ's in your Roadster- and Ive heard some folks say that JJ's are crap heard folks say Rubys suck too- I guess it all depends on the individual and more so its really difficult to draw a definite line as to which is best or better.
Thanks for checking out the vid and thank you for your perspective in regards to the roadster and the JJ's- I may at some point try them out.

 

[nismofreakish]

My pleasure!

Although I never heard Rubys were crap, I did hear de JJs have a less lifetime than other brands. I'm still running my first quad and so far so good. But tone wise, they're the best so far in my Roaster, at least for the dirt side! (I also tried the TADs) But my cleans are nice as well!

 

[BeltFedRiffs]

Cool deal when its time for me to re-tube I'll give JJ's a second look or consideration specially given that you as well are rolling with the roadster

 

[bandit2013]

Great post by the way, watched the video. Sounds great, both amps sound the same...

I have been down this rabbit hole, primarily with the Mark V. However I also have a Roadster and have tried various tubes in that excluding the cathode follower positions V3 and V5.

I believe the Ruby 6L6GCMSTR tubes are the same tube as the Mesa 6L6GC STR440. Not much of a major difference will be noted with same tube, perhaps some are selected for a given set of characteristics but the differences will not be audible. I have a set of the Ruby 6L6GCMSTR that I have tried both in the Roadster and the Mark V. There may have been a slight difference but essentially they sound the same. If you want to hear a difference between different 6L6GC tubes best to use unlike versions. TAD 6L6GC-STR are phenomenal tubes, SED =C= 6L6CG are similar, TungSol 7581 and the Svetlana 6L6GC (not identical to =c=) share some similarities but quite different in tonal character and gain structure. Just change in power tubes to something unlike the Mesa branded Ruby tubes will be apparent.

As for preamp tubes, Mesa sorts out the JJECC83s tubes that meet specific characteristics. You can get some subtle differences with just a change in V1. Tung sol 12AX7 will alter the tone in the top end and reduce some of the dominant bottom end and shape some mids. Mullard RI 12ax7 long plate will also alter the amps character with smoother top end and perhaps a bit more midrange presence. You can get a different character if you leave V1 stock and change V2 to other type of 12AX7 tube. Change in V3 or V5 did not have any apparent or noticeable change (I actually prefer the Mesa branded JJ 12AX7 in these positions). I have tried the penta-labs, Ruby HG version, and the old Mesa Chinese 12AX7A (better than the others) in V3. Not much of a difference here as it feeds the tone stack also has one of the late gain stages. One last position that will affect tone would be the PI tube (V6). Just a slight advantage in top end with a Sovtek LPS or JJ ECC803s but not much.
I actually prefer the Roadster with the Mesa tubes as they complement the Mesa 6L6GC STR440, also some tubes may take away the grind or gain characteristic if their impedance places a shift on the tone (TungSol 12AX7). Even the Mesa SPAX7 will slightly alter the character of the Roadster. There is a slight change but more audible with change in power tubes.


If you were comparing two Mark V amps with different preamp tubes, they would sound different as that amp seems to react well with preamp tube change. Perhaps it is the early tone stack location on that amp that makes change in preamp tubes apparent. Not really sure.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

For my Mesas, I only have the V1 preamps replaced with SPAX 12AX7s for both my Roadster head and Mark V head. For the power section, both have matched quads Winged C 6L6s. It does make a difference at least to me

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Ok so I have 2 Mesa Roadsters laying around and both are loaded with different tubes. One is completely loaded with Mesa Branded Tubes (6L6)- the other is a set from Dougs Tubes (6L6) match quad with a mix match going on in the pre-amp section.
So I decided to throw together a quick compare/contrast to see how vast or how little of a difference tube brands and if chassing the rabbit of tone down the hole of tubes and tube selection- if its worth it or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmGTB0JXlzg

Id like to know what you guys think- and if there is some crazy tube combo's that have blown you away- such as the KT66 or KT88's? I was open to trying out all these but after how little of a difference I noted not really that enthused about spending that kind of money for a marginal difference.

They are slight differences between brands indeed. May not be night and day for some people. I for one dig those Winged C 6L6s. However, if you wanted a more drastic difference, changing different poweramp valve type will do more. Since you have two Roadster heads, I suggest you keep one with 6L6, and maybe try a KT66 or EL34 set with the other, assuming you don't mind spending money on a full revalve on the second Roadster so to speak

 

[CoG]

I can definitely say that EL34s are a great choice in a Roadster if you're playing at big-boy volume and on the crunchier or heavier side of things. Passive pickups with sensible output levels into a Roadster with EL34s on CH3 vintage and a little boost kick in the input jack is an awesome 'classic heavy metal' tone - nice tight, focused chug and grind and a lead sound that isn't 'stiff'. You can also get a ******* amazing vintage lead tone on CH2 Tweed with EL34s if you're in a situation where you can play LOUD.

EL34s do (in my experience) make it a lot harder to dial in three or four channels all sounding good at combat volume, though.

My overall experience is that preamp tubes, specifically V1, make a noticeable difference in the "flavor" of Roadsters and Rectos. I haven't found anything that sounds exceptionally bad, but in general the Roadster, like pretty much any Mesa, sounds better with a loud/bright signal hitting it early, and it also makes the rest of the tone stack more effective. When we were recording, I would test preamp tubes in a Valve Jr. just to find the brightest, loudest one (even if it was just some random Chinese tube), throw that in my buddy's Roadster, and it would always mix better. That's the thing - tube rolling past V1 in modern multi-channel amps doesn't make any difference if you're going into a full band mix. You won't hear it.

I tube rolled the living **** out of two Mark IIIs and I can't say that I ever noticed any difference worth spending money on. Marks gonna Mark, I guess. On my RA100 I discovered that I could do soooo much subtle-but-audible stuff with judicious manipulation of the power soak and 50/100 switches that screwing around with preamp tubes just didn't make any sense as long as I put good quality EL34s in it.

 

[bandit2013]

I would agree on the older Mark amps, not much of a notable change unless you can run an integrated quad (6L6 + EL34) in Mark III or Mark IV. Can't be done with the Mark V (or should not be done). However, The Mark V does take well to different preamp tubes and will be noticeable in terms of compression and or top end roll off (which is more desired than ice). I did try a few different tubes in the JP but did not make much of a difference probably due to its heritage.

Tung Sol 12ax7 or even Mullard RI 12ax7 will make a notable difference in overall tone of the Roadster. Power tubes will also contribute as the Mesa 6L6 STR440 has its own unique tone, SED =c= 6L6GC is as close as you can get to some of the older NOS tubes but they cost as much and probably not worth the money at this point as most are seconds and not best quality that are on the market nowadays. =C= in the Roadster was definitely brighter in tone but seemed to lack the 3D effect in this amp that I get with the Mesa 6L6. Not the issue with the Mark series amps though. The tone of the Mesa STR440 just does not work well with the Mark V but they sound awesome in the JP-2C. How does that relate to the Dual Rectifier amps? it does not since the overall tone of these amps are generally darker and do not boost the midrange as much or the top end. Probably why I love my Roadster. Perhaps what is similar in tonal range would be the JP-2C but it is very thick in the midrange band but yet does not sound bad at all. Blends quite well with the Roadster where as the Mark V seems to be a bit thin and notched and bleeds out as ***** in the mix (depends on how you set it up). I know this is all off topic....

I can only say one thing about the EH (Mesa) el34, they are a bit harsh in character. What sounds better to me is the Mullard EL34 reissue. Still the SED =C= EL34 was tops in my books and I am still using a set in one of my RA100. When those crap out I will move on to the Mullards or try something else like a 6CA7 (probably the EH brand). I have not had any luck with the JJ 6CA7 power tubes as they did not last very long before failing but they sounded so good I would consider them again. Definitely want to try out a quad of 6CA7 in the Roadster as they generally have more bottom end than the standard EL34, more bite and grit in the gain character, just sinister in nature but how that will perform in a Roadster is unknown to me.

 

[Nitrobattery]

Cool video.

It really depends on the amp. Rectos/SLO's/5150's are all so saturated that other than the V1 and the PI, you won't hear much difference at low volumes. As you crank the amp up though, certain tubes can help alleviate fizziness or upper midrange 'clank' in your pick attack that can sound like nails on a chalkboard through something like V30's. Through something like a Plexi or an 800, the preamp tubes make a drastic difference. Right before I opened this thread I was experimenting with different 12Ax7's and 5751's in my Splawn Quick Rod and every move made a pretty noticeable difference. It just depends on the amp and how the gain is structured.

For fun, it would be worth doing another video of a mic on the cab. I have a Torpedo Reload, and while I like the Two Notes stuff, the amp's individual impedance curve isn't really taken into account. Amps that I have that sound drastically different end up sounding pretty similar through the Torpedo. It tends to homogenize the tone.

 

[sonoragazzo]

Yes they do, electronically, mechanically (due to their particular design) therefore tone wise.

Have tried different tube brands on mine (mainly preamp tubes) and have confirmed the tone changed, some will hit harder than others meaning the achieved tone can be hard to smooth.
Have also confirmed V1 will be the one with major impact on your change.

My advise is to try a few to help you define your unique sound/touch

Happy hunting !

 

[Jamme1961]

Power tubes not so much - preamp tubes are your biggest change IMHO

 

[DECEMBER]

Power tubes not so much - preamp tubes are your biggest change IMHO

Exact opposite experience here...
I've had 6 tube amps from 5 manufacturers, and currently have a Boogie Mark V and Carvin V3. I've rolled a whole bunch of different preamp tubes thru all of them and have recently been trying several different power tube configs in the Mark V.
The only variation I get from preamp tubes is in the amount of gain and character of the distortion, while the amp retains its inherent tone. I've recorded many comparison recordings and any variance in tone is extremely subtle and only noticeable when A/B'ing the recordings on the fly thru headphones.
Different power tubes in the Mark V are having a much greater effect on the tone. It's still only really noticeable in recordings, but it's a much more obvious difference that can be heard thru speakers.
A set of JJ 6L6GC sounds quite different from Mesa STR-440 6L6GC. Then I got a pair of STR-441 and a pair of STR-445. I recorded takes of ch3 on 90, 45 and 10W with every possible combination of the 4 pairs of Mesa tubes. They all sound significantly different in recordings.
Surprisingly, though, the most opposite combos sounded the most alike: 445 green in the outer & 440 green in the inner sockets, and 440 yellow in the outer & 441 yellow in the inner, sound almost the same. Groove Tubes EL34 didn't sound as different from the JJ 6L6GC as expected, but I didn't compare the EL34 with any of the Mesa 6L6GC.
90/45/10W all sound different, too, because each setting uses different tubes. 90W uses all 4, 45W uses the inner pair, and 10W uses the two on the left next to the rectifier tube.
I'm gonna put together an audio clip of the comparisons to put on SoundCloud, then I'll share the link here.

 

[Jamme1961]

Exact opposite experience here...
I've had 6 tube amps from 5 manufacturers, and currently have a Boogie Mark V and Carvin V3. I've rolled a whole bunch of different preamp tubes thru all of them and have recently been trying several different power tube configs in the Mark V.
The only variation I get from preamp tubes is in the amount of gain and character of the distortion, while the amp retains its inherent tone. I've recorded many comparison recordings and any variance in tone is extremely subtle and only noticeable when A/B'ing the recordings on the fly thru headphones.
Different power tubes in the Mark V are having a much greater effect on the tone. It's still only really noticeable in recordings, but it's a much more obvious difference that can be heard thru speakers.
A set of JJ 6L6GC sounds quite different from Mesa STR-440 6L6GC. Then I got a pair of STR-441 and a pair of STR-445. I recorded takes of ch3 on 90, 45 and 10W with every possible combination of the 4 pairs of Mesa tubes. They all sound significantly different in recordings.
Surprisingly, though, the most opposite combos sounded the most alike: 445 green in the outer & 440 green in the inner sockets, and 440 yellow in the outer & 441 yellow in the inner, sound almost the same. Groove Tubes EL34 didn't sound as different from the JJ 6L6GC as expected, but I didn't compare the EL34 with any of the Mesa 6L6GC.
90/45/10W all sound different, too, because each setting uses different tubes. 90W uses all 4, 45W uses the inner pair, and 10W uses the two on the left next to the rectifier tube.
I'm gonna put together an audio clip of the comparisons to put on SoundCloud, then I'll share the link here.

I agree to disagree with you - that’s fine it’s all subjective stuff. I’ve done this stuff with tubes and it gets expensive.

 

[soloistthree]

Never noticed much of a difference, ever. I'll keep my money and pickup other amps I like rather than mess around with rolling tubes for some non-existant "holy grail" tube set. "If they work, they stay in the amp", I think Brandon Breeeze said that, and I am 100% on board with that sentiment.

 

[bandit2013]

I would agree with only one comment thus far, chasing tone with tubes can be expensive. Just as much as falling into that rabbit hole that speakers make a difference and tone woods of your instrument.

Depends on the amp in question, tubes can make a huge difference with some more so than others. Just as much as speaker choice, cabinet materials and what your guitar is made of. Note that the amp must be used with a speaker cabinet without any reactive loads to attenuate the natural response and coupling between the amp, speaker and guitar itself. Once you introduce any type of modeling equipment such as multi-effect units loaded with IR images of other amps, or cabinet simulations, it will not make any difference what tubes you use as it will all sound much the same.

We all have a different story to tell. Depends on what it is you are trying to achieve, and did you get that or was it a waste of time and money? Everyone will have a different experience and opinion on the subject.

This is with just amp, cabinet and guitar with passive pickups:

• Amps I found respond well to change in preamp and power tubes: Royal Atlantic RA100, Roadster, Mark V90 (at least with mine anyway, I have the ice pick model, amp sounds the worst with the Mesa branded JJ tubes).
• Amps where the preamp tube did not change much if at all: Triple Crown TC100, TC50.
• Amps where the Mesa preamp tube was best: MWDR, JP2C, Mark VII, Badlander
• Amps that are more influenced with power tube changes: All of them.

I can agree that in many cases, it makes no difference on preamp tube or power tube choice you make If you are one who prefers to use active pickups, or push the amp with OD on the front end, I doubt you will notice or appreciate any difference that preamp tubes or even power tubes will make to your overall sound. That includes any modeling effects units and IR loaded cabinet simulators.

If you run passive pickups, it may make a world of difference. I much prefer the passive pickups, with high output down to medium output. At least I can hear the difference between Mahogany, Walnut, Alder, Koa, Okoume, Swamp Ash, and Black Limba (Korena) tone woods on any of the guitars I have made of such materials. Couple that into an amp that brings forth that different sound and it all makes sense.

Sometimes that slight difference may go a long way. Not all amps react the same way. Some are just dead or locked into a constant characteristic as there may be other circuits in the amp that prevents any deviation of its intended characteristic (Triple Crown) and some may not change much if at all or sound worse than the original stock tube.

I never take into account that many may be using some sort of 4CM with amp simulators or reactive loads to manage the output levels. When it comes to recording with IR cab simulators, all bets are off as there will not be any notable changes as you are using a pre-canned simulation in place of the actual sound you would get with just the amp, cab and guitar. There are plenty of things in the mix that pose their own set of challenges in getting quality sound. Some may actually defeat the purpose of preamp tubes or power tube offerings. Even recording music has its challenges. I have seen countless amp comparison videos were the amp was either processed through an IR cab simulator or the guitar was recorded with a looper unit. That sort of makes all the other amps or change in tubes sound the same (there are plenty of videos comparing power tubes or preamp tubes using a looper of pre-recorded sound).

 

[DECEMBER]

Once you introduce any type of modeling equipment such as multi-effect units loaded with IR images of other amps, or cabinet simulations, it will not make any difference what tubes you use as it will all sound much the same.

If you are one who prefers to use active pickups, or push the amp with OD on the front end, I doubt you will notice or appreciate any difference that preamp tubes or even power tubes will make to your overall sound.

I'm running active EMGs with an overdrive in front of ch3 for high gain (chuggy rhythm) into a reactive load and slave out into the interface with the TwoNotes WoS plugin running IRs I made of my speakers.
I just got matched pairs of 6L6GC STR-441 and 445, and have the old quad of 440's and a quad of JJ's.
I recorded comparisons of every possible combination of the Mesa power tubes.
445 outer/441 inner, 440 outer/445 inner, 441 outer/440 inner, etc.
And I'm getting significant tonal variation in the direct recordings. The 440's also sounded quite different from the JJ's. I'll post the link here when I put it on SoundCloud.

 

[bandit2013]

Yeah, the STR440 are quite different compared to the other two. Depends on the amp in question when I like them or hate them.

I was just making a generalized comment based on what I personally experienced in the past. I have not ventured into the IR stuff, but power attenuators, tried that. Did the 4CM thing too, some multi-effect units only to find it had issues with latency and not working out so well when you added too much into the processing. No more for me. I prefer to keep it simple and would rather use separate FX units in the loop as they only do one thing well and that is process their intended function. For the other units, they would have to be a multi-core processor or several that can run at the same time without creating digital artifacts or worse. Some of that stuff has come a long way so perhaps one day I may venture into that world, that would be the day tubes are no more.

As it seems, we end up being the experiment by the vendors who sell the product. The old descriptions before Gibson took over, did identify the Mesa amps that were selected for what tube, Mark V90 STR441, JP2C STR443 and MWDR STR445. When I got my hands on the Mark VII, I was surprised to see the STR445 tubes in that amp. Tried them in the JP2C and thought they sounded just about as good as the STR448 and the STR415. My JP is a 2016 so it came equipped with the STR440 tubes as did the MWDR I bought in 2018. Both amps had grey coded tubes. Tried the STR445 (greens) in the MWDR and did not like them at all. I do have some in yellows to try in the MWDR. For some reason or another I favor the STR440, I sort of like that pissed off bee's nest growl you get with the MWDR, it was not so ideal with the JP2C but it did not take away from its performance either.

I can agree with those who claim it makes no difference but yet disagree at the same time and say it does. Depends on the amp and may also include how it is used. I did try the power soak thing, Rock Crusher Rivera unit. Not bad with the Roadster. Made the other amps sound sort of ***** or boxy.

I moved away from active pickups as they were not providing what I wanted as I kept getting the same characteristic from the guitar when I rolled off the volume. Passives will change when you alter the position of the volume pot more so than with actives. Just my 2cents.

I have nothing against actives, use them as you see fit. I still have one axe that has a set of EMG's but they are the hybrid types with exposed pole pieces, 57 /66 set in a cheap Squire contemporary strat. I like those better than I thought I would. The neck is half decent for a $400 instrument. Body is made of Poplar wood and obviously made in China. The original electronics were junk copies of the EMGs from the past. All that had to go. New pickguard as well from Warmoth as that was one place I could find pickguards made for a FR bridge.

I have had a few guitars in the past that had the EMG 81 back in the late 1980s before I bought my first boogie. I believe I took this picture in 1985 while I was still in high school, back in the day it was cheaper to develop black and white film. Bummer, I had to sell the Spotlight Special to finance my divorce from the first wife in 1999. It played quite well for such a heavy guitar. The Robin on the left had the EMG 81 or some sort of EMG pickup. Sold that guitar in 2007 with most of my other gear as I gave up on music (I thought I did but got back into it in 2012).

A few of the Carvin guitars have active tone controls, standard passive pickups. DC200 (replaced the guts with the DC400 electronics). Three DC400 guitars. That is what I had starting with the Mark V90. The old Charvel Model 4 I had (removed the active tone controls from that one and installed just a SD pickup in it, may have looked like hell but played well).

Though of building my own Super Strat, well that was interesting. Started out with EMG David Gilmore set, wanted something different so I changed the pickups, and again wanted something different.

Thought the Fluence Strat set would work out, hell no. OK if you like to keep your amp on the clean channel but did not favor distortion much. The exception was the JP2C as I can run just about anything into it and it will sound good. That did not hold true with the TC100 or TC50 or any other amp. the Fishman Fluence strat set was a waste of money. Sure, I was able to get a strat sound but like I said, only on the clean channel. the EMG SA or the RA were much better for higher gain applications. I eventually ditched the actives in the project guitar for something passive but yet different that your typical single coil. Zexcoil legacy juicy buckers.

So how does this all relate to preamp and power tubes? It has an impact on how the amp will sound, how it couples to the guitar through the speaker cabinet. Once that coupling is taken out, you lose that feel. It may still sound good though. Just getting used to wearing headphones is the hard part. I had more enjoyment just using the attenuator so I could crank up the Roadster into its sweet spot, otherwise it would be too loud to do much with it.

What transformed that amp into something different was a shotgun approach to stuffing the entire preamp with some old Mesa tubes from the 1990's. They were leftovers from my band days with the Mark III. Also grabbed some Ruby branded versions from Doug's Tubes when he had them available. Never expected that kind of transformation. Sometimes things will pan out and sometimes they do not. Now I do not need the EV speakers and can make due with the V30s. Not a total loss, that cab is amazing with the JP2C or the Mark VII. That was my first 412 cab, did not work out with the Mark IVB, total flop with the Mark V90 (it had issues), so I ripped out the V30 and replaced with EVM12L black labels. That only made the ice pick far worse that it was.

The 12AX7 comparison charts almost resemble the pickup selector guides you may see on some vendor websites. Take it with a grain of salt as the tube chart does not clearly indicate what type of circuit it was used in. How many tubes of the same type were tested as I have found not all of the same type sound the same, including the Mesa branded JJ ECC83s tubes.

https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-articles/12ax7-comparison-current-made-tubes

Then comes the power tubes, would be nice to have some sort of comparative chart for those. First time I ever saw this one. Based on the description, they were tested on a single ended amp, I assume true Class A mode then. Not seeing much here. What about early distortion characteristics? That is one important factor to consider when it comes to power tubes, is it Class AB or Simul-Class. That also indicates if you need more headroom or more tube distortion.

https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-articles/6l6gc-comparison-current-made-tubes

Does it make a difference, not always. When the tubes you are familiar with end up in the out of production category (NOS), it would be nice to find what is comparable or as good in current production tubes. I was going to say obsolete, in general terms, tubes are an obsolete technology but necessary for guitar amps that sound good. Eventually that too will fade away but may as well enjoy them while we can.

 

[DrKev]

Exact opposite experience here...
I've had 6 tube amps from 5 manufacturers, and currently have a Boogie Mark V and Carvin V3. I've rolled a whole bunch of different preamp tubes thru all of them and have recently been trying several different power tube configs in the Mark V.
The only variation I get from preamp tubes is in the amount of gain and character of the distortion, while the amp retains its inherent tone. I've recorded many comparison recordings and any variance in tone is extremely subtle and only noticeable when A/B'ing the recordings on the fly thru headphones.

I agree. Example from personal experience: I changed a JJ ECC83S in V1 for a Mesa Branded 12AY7. That's both different brand and different type of tube. Should be a clear difference, right? If I set the gain on the amp to get the same total output and distortion, nobody can tell the difference in a blindfold test.

If tubes had a sound, the manufacturers would have frequency response curves, just like speakers do. That's is not and has never been the case. Tubes, like capacitors and resistors, don't have a sound of their own, the overall circuit does.