Cryo Treated Tubes

[Russ]

waassaabee,

I am glad you like your Svet's. I just hope that they are worth the extra you paid.


There might be something we are missing here that actually adds to their credibility and merit of the process. Looking back at things, I think that if there was something that could have been done to improve the vacuum tube it would have been done already because of the intense use by the government and medical researchers that were the primary users of the technology. Once the government contracts stopped, tube production fell way off. Once medical technologies improved and made tube gear obsolete it only accelerated what was the end of an era. Also private use of tube audio and video gear fell off too further squashing the market. If cryo treatment was that much of an improvement I would think that there would have been these cryo tubes in mass production long ago. This is only speculation.

BTW, does anyone think that storing tubes in the freezer will help? I think that is a lame idea personally. I know you can help batteries by storing them in the refrigerator though.

 

[waassaabee]

waassaabee,

I am glad you like your Svet's. I just hope that they are worth the extra you paid.

Me too!! But I doubt it.. PT Barnum comes to mind. :roll:

 

[Russ]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[edgarallanpoe]

Here is what Tube World has to say on the subject...

In stock form, a typical electron tube exhibits several problems that directly impact its sonic performance. Most serious are the many internal stresses in the construction materials that accumulate during most of the stages of manufacture and a very hard, heavy oxide-coating on through-glass pins to which direct connection is made. Seven (7) and nine (9) pin miniature tubes are typical of those pins that are heavily oxidized while power tubes such as KT88 and EL34 are fitted with bases whose pins are tinned with the result that contact quality is much improved. During cryogenic tempering, the tube is slowly cooled to the -193°C / -320°F temperature of liquid nitrogen (LN2), "soaked" for 36 hours, then slowly returned to ambient temperature.

By means of this unique and vital process, the stresses interior to the materials of the tube are substantially and permanently relaxed. The "Q" of the (self) resonant (electro) mechanical systems responsible for the output of (self) microphonic spuriae is thereby drastically reduced. By this important reduction, both the peak amplitude and the "ring down" time of these systems is reduced with the result that the "apparent gain" of the tube is increased - even in feedback controlled circuits - while the "dynamic noise floor" is lowered.

The sonic improvements of a over a "factory condition" NOS tube include:

+ tighter focus from top to bottom
+ more holographic 3D soundstage
+ more subtle inner resolution extracted from recordings
+ tighter bass
+ increased dynamic range
+ faster transient response
+ clearer vocals

TubeWorld's cryogenic process takes select tubes and deep-chill anneals them for 36 hours at -193° Celcius / -320° Fahrenheit in a cryogenic chamber, producing a superior sounding vacuum tube called a


The sonic improvements of a over a "factory condition" NOS tube include:

+ tighter focus from top to bottom
+ more holographic 3D soundstage
+ more subtle inner resolution extracted from recordings
+ tighter bass
+ increased dynamic range
+ faster transient response
+ clearer vocals

PHASE I: TUBE SELECTION
------------------------------------------------
TubeWorld selects tubes for treatment based on the following criteria:
1. Specific name brands that have superior sonics versus other brands.
2. Production years that have yielded the best sounding tubes.
3. Tubes with superior electrical characteristics as follows:

PREAMP TUBES (12AX7, 6922) (Coming Summer 2006)

- Noise Grade: Low Noise or Gold Grade

- Dual triodes with close AC and DC section balance;
most within 10%, many within 5% as tested on a SOFIA plate curve tracer

- Microphonics Test: Good (low) or Excellent (very low)

- Plate Current (ma) (will exceed specified rating)

- Transconductance (Gm) (at or above specified rating)

- Triode Section Balance Idle (DC) (within 1-10%)

Test Equipment used:

- SOFIA by Audiomatica plate curve tracer
- VTV Dual Triode Characterizer
- Custom Preamp: The design is full gain with no negative feedback;
a very sensitive test to check tube noise and microphonics. Copyrighted
design.
- Other test equipment listed soon

POWER TUBES (EL34, 6550, EL84, 211, 2A3, 300B)

- High transconductance

- Medium to high standing idle current

- Matched before treatment in triode mode and/or pentode mode

Test Equipment used:

- SOFIA by Audiomatica plate curve tracer
- Maxi-Matcher

he process is computer-controlled and consists of three stages:

1. Descend: 8 hours. Lowers temp from 65°F (room temp) to -320°F/-193°C.
2. Soak: 36 hours. Maintains a constant temperature of -320°F/-192°C.
3. Ascend: 8-10 hours. Raises temp very gradually from -320°F back to 65°F.

STAGE 1: DESCEND
Tubes loaded in cryo tank




* 211 GE 1940's
* 6550A GE JAN 1985
* GZ37 Mullard 1958-1959
* CV378 High Wycombe
England 1950-1952



* 5687 Tungsol 1950's
* 6900 Bendix 1950's
* 5AS4 Mullard 1960's
* 7025 RCA 1960's
* 6X5GT RCA 194

 

[waassaabee]

waassaabee,
There might be something we are missing here that actually adds to their credibility and merit of the process. Looking back at things, I think that if there was something that could have been done to improve the vacuum tube it would have been done already because of the intense use by the government and medical researchers that were the primary users of the technology. Once the government contracts stopped, tube production fell way off. Once medical technologies improved and made tube gear obsolete it only accelerated what was the end of an era. Also private use of tube audio and video gear fell off too further squashing the market. If cryo treatment was that much of an improvement I would think that there would have been these cryo tubes in mass production long ago. This is only speculation.

If I'm not mistaken, the military and medical researchers were charmed by the new age of transistors, seeing tubes as slow and outdated for their purposes. Is it possible that this cryo treatment, be it unproven to the naysayers, could have some benefit to those of us that swear by the age old technology? Sometimes taking a chance puts you on the cutting edge! :idea: But that's only speculation...

 

[waassaabee]

waassaabee,
BTW, does anyone think that storing tubes in the freezer will help? I think that is a lame idea personally. I know you can help batteries by storing them in the refrigerator though.

Way too much moisture for tubes I'd imagine! And wouldn't the moisture from a refrigerator or freezer collect over the entire battery, actually creating a short circuit? I suppose you could heat seal them.. I prefer buying a limited amount, and storing in a dry cool place (like they suggest..).

 

[Russ]

Here is what Tube World has to say on the subject...

In stock form, a typical electron tube exhibits several problems that directly impact its sonic performance. Most serious are the many internal stresses in the construction materials that accumulate during most of the stages of manufacture and a very hard, heavy oxide-coating on through-glass pins to which direct connection is made. Seven (7) and nine (9) pin miniature tubes are typical of those pins that are heavily oxidized while power tubes such as KT88 and EL34 are fitted with bases whose pins are tinned with the result that contact quality is much improved. During cryogenic tempering, the tube is slowly cooled to the -193°C / -320°F temperature of liquid nitrogen (LN2), "soaked" for 36 hours, then slowly returned to ambient temperature.

By means of this unique and vital process, the stresses interior to the materials of the tube are substantially and permanently relaxed. The "Q" of the (self) resonant (electro) mechanical systems responsible for the output of (self) microphonic spuriae is thereby drastically reduced. By this important reduction, both the peak amplitude and the "ring down" time of these systems is reduced with the result that the "apparent gain" of the tube is increased - even in feedback controlled circuits - while the "dynamic noise floor" is lowered.

The sonic improvements of a over a "factory condition" NOS tube include:

+ tighter focus from top to bottom
+ more holographic 3D soundstage
+ more subtle inner resolution extracted from recordings
+ tighter bass
+ increased dynamic range
+ faster transient response
+ clearer vocals

TubeWorld's cryogenic process takes select tubes and deep-chill anneals them for 36 hours at -193° Celcius / -320° Fahrenheit in a cryogenic chamber, producing a superior sounding vacuum tube called a


The sonic improvements of a over a "factory condition" NOS tube include:

+ tighter focus from top to bottom
+ more holographic 3D soundstage
+ more subtle inner resolution extracted from recordings
+ tighter bass
+ increased dynamic range
+ faster transient response
+ clearer vocals

PHASE I: TUBE SELECTION
------------------------------------------------
TubeWorld selects tubes for treatment based on the following criteria:
1. Specific name brands that have superior sonics versus other brands.
2. Production years that have yielded the best sounding tubes.
3. Tubes with superior electrical characteristics as follows:

PREAMP TUBES (12AX7, 6922) (Coming Summer 2006)

- Noise Grade: Low Noise or Gold Grade

- Dual triodes with close AC and DC section balance;
most within 10%, many within 5% as tested on a SOFIA plate curve tracer

- Microphonics Test: Good (low) or Excellent (very low)

- Plate Current (ma) (will exceed specified rating)

- Transconductance (Gm) (at or above specified rating)

- Triode Section Balance Idle (DC) (within 1-10%)

Test Equipment used:

- SOFIA by Audiomatica plate curve tracer
- VTV Dual Triode Characterizer
- Custom Preamp: The design is full gain with no negative feedback;
a very sensitive test to check tube noise and microphonics. Copyrighted
design.
- Other test equipment listed soon

POWER TUBES (EL34, 6550, EL84, 211, 2A3, 300B)

- High transconductance

- Medium to high standing idle current

- Matched before treatment in triode mode and/or pentode mode

Test Equipment used:

- SOFIA by Audiomatica plate curve tracer
- Maxi-Matcher

he process is computer-controlled and consists of three stages:

1. Descend: 8 hours. Lowers temp from 65°F (room temp) to -320°F/-193°C.
2. Soak: 36 hours. Maintains a constant temperature of -320°F/-192°C.
3. Ascend: 8-10 hours. Raises temp very gradually from -320°F back to 65°F.

STAGE 1: DESCEND
Tubes loaded in cryo tank




* 211 GE 1940's
* 6550A GE JAN 1985
* GZ37 Mullard 1958-1959
* CV378 High Wycombe
England 1950-1952



* 5687 Tungsol 1950's
* 6900 Bendix 1950's
* 5AS4 Mullard 1960's
* 7025 RCA 1960's
* 6X5GT RCA 194

I would like to see what someone other than the vendor has to say in response to the claims, a non-biased third party opinion would be nice. It is easy to blow your own horn and make claims that are somewhat difficult to prove. If they are already choosing known nice premium tubes, then how much difference could there really be?

 

[Russ]

waassaabee,
There might be something we are missing here that actually adds to their credibility and merit of the process. Looking back at things, I think that if there was something that could have been done to improve the vacuum tube it would have been done already because of the intense use by the government and medical researchers that were the primary users of the technology. Once the government contracts stopped, tube production fell way off. Once medical technologies improved and made tube gear obsolete it only accelerated what was the end of an era. Also private use of tube audio and video gear fell off too further squashing the market. If cryo treatment was that much of an improvement I would think that there would have been these cryo tubes in mass production long ago. This is only speculation.

If I'm not mistaken, the military and medical researchers were charmed by the new age of transistors, seeing tubes as slow and outdated for their purposes. Is it possible that this cryo treatment, be it unproven to the naysayers, could have some benefit to those of us that swear by the age old technology? Sometimes taking a chance puts you on the cutting edge! :idea: But that's only speculation...

Though it may actually have some benefit, it would be what? Cutting edge technology on obsoleted parts? I know that us tube consumers would benefit but only if they could make it part of the manufacture process and reduce the cost as opposed to random small batch dunking like a Betty Crocker recipe.

 

[Russ]

waassaabee,
BTW, does anyone think that storing tubes in the freezer will help? I think that is a lame idea personally. I know you can help batteries by storing them in the refrigerator though.

Way too much moisture for tubes I'd imagine! And wouldn't the moisture from a refrigerator or freezer collect over the entire battery, actually creating a short circuit? I suppose you could heat seal them.. I prefer buying a limited amount, and storing in a dry cool place (like they suggest..).

From the batteries I have stored in the fridge I have yet to see any short and drain themselves. I wonder if batteries last longer in places like the arctic circle than in places along the equator.

The thought of ice crystal formation is what keeps me from sticking my tubes in the freezer. I have thought about sticking them in the refrigerator but it really doesn't make any sense to me besides I would rather put food in there than some contraption to safely store my tubes.

 

[Guitarzan]

There's a lot of difference between 275 deg K in your freezer and 73 deg K in LN2...

 

[Russ]

I know that...

 

[waassaabee]

Though it may actually have some benefit, it would be what? Cutting edge technology on obsoleted parts? I know that us tube consumers would benefit but only if they could make it part of the manufacture process and reduce the cost as opposed to random small batch dunking like a Betty Crocker recipe.

Easy now.. I've got those 'obsoleted' parts in my amp!! And I think I like it. 8) I figured you'd have a few too. And it's ME that's out a couple of $$..
Now on four.. let's rock n roll!!

 

[waassaabee]

There's a lot of difference between 275 deg K in your freezer and 73 deg K in LN2...

Mr. Zan.. Just how the heck does that Kelvin system work :?:

 

[Guitarzan]

The Kelvin temperature scale (K) was developed by Lord Kelvin in the mid 1800s. The zero point of this scale is equivalent to -273.16 °C on the Celsius scale. This zero point is considered the lowest possible temperature of anything in the universe. Therefore, the Kelvin scale is also known as the "absolute temperature scale". At the freezing point of water, the temperature of the Kelvin scale reads 273 K. At the boiling point of water, it reads 373 K.

So 0 Kelvin =-273 deg C, 73 K is the temp of LN2..

 

[waassaabee]

The Kelvin temperature scale (K) was developed by Lord Kelvin in the mid 1800s. The zero point of this scale is equivalent to -273.16 °C on the Celsius scale. This zero point is considered the lowest possible temperature of anything in the universe. Therefore, the Kelvin scale is also known as the "absolute temperature scale". At the freezing point of water, the temperature of the Kelvin scale reads 273 K. At the boiling point of water, it reads 373 K.

So 0 Kelvin =-273 deg C, 73 K is the temp of LN2..

Gotcha.. The knowledge base of this forum is amazing!
Thanks

 

[edgarallanpoe]

I would like to see what someone other than the vendor has to say in response to the claims, a non-biased third party opinion would be nice. It is easy to blow your own horn and make claims that are somewhat difficult to prove. If they are already choosing known nice premium tubes, then how much difference could there really be?

Agreed. I have never purchased cryo tubes so I have no idea if they are better or not. I simply posted that because there was a great deal of doubt surrounding the *technical* aspects of the process. I would think that there would have to be *some* merit to the process. Otherwise the process wouldn't exist. Lets face it, if I claim that smacking your tubes with a hammer will make them stronger, not a single soul would buy into that because there is no merit to the claim. This process is much different than that, it obviously *does* have some merit behind the claim. How much or how little is up to the individual.

 

[stoz]

Personally, I'd be interested in other people's feedback whatever the claimed process was.
If several Boogie Board members recommended some special tubes that had been subjected to a voodoo ritual involving chanting and nakedness, I'd want to check them out.
I know enough about electronics to know that I don't understand everything, and I'll keep an open mind about strange sounding claims.

 

[treelifeUK]

Found this on Watford valves website

DEEP CYROGENTIC TREATMENT

The process involves taking the vacuum tubes and freezing them down to -312 f and soaking these for a minimum of 12 hours. Then the temp is held at this low level for 24 hours. The vacuum tubes are then slowly brought up to normal levels over the next 12 hours.

Metals respond very well to deep cryogenic process. The reasons are as follows. During the cooling or solidification phase of the manufacturing process, molecules are trapped in a haphazard pattern. This is down to stress caused in the bending and welding of the anode plate material.. This random placement causes obstacles for electrons and when encountered this interference can cause noise, slow down electron flow and sound deteriation affecting the quality of the sound of the vacuum tube. At very cold temperatures (below -312°F), the molecules will align in a more uniform, compact structure through the removal of kinetic energy. When the material is returned to ambient temperature, this new uniform, compact pattern is maintained, Thus changing the structure of the nickel permanently. This process makes a permanent change and the benefits do not deteriorate over time or upon return to operating temperature, it changes the whole way the vacuum tube performs.

The biggest benefits I have found has been a dramatic improvement in dymanic range. Bass response has been clearer with reduction in microphonics. The really most starling fact as been how the valve operates under saturated and overdriven conditions. This has made some of the more basic Fender amps sound fuller and warmer.

 

[waassaabee]

OK so it's not just in my head.. :shock: I bought a pair of the Svet EL34's cryo treated, and my MkIV sings!! It's only a couple of bucks a tube so someone else please tell me I'm not crazy.. 8)
No I'm not associated with any of the outfits providing this service!

 

[Russ]

Watford also sells cryo tubes. I don't think they would not hype the tubes they are selling either. I think I need to hear A/B test results recorded showing dramatic results with the same amp and settings.