Compressors in FX loop?

[Dolebludger]

Do any of you have a compressor hooked up in your FX loop? I'm considering getting a compressor (some with noise limiters) and prefer rack mounted gear to pedals. I have received mixed opinions as to whether a compressor would work right in my FX loop. Do any of you have any experience with this?

 

[mr_fender]

As long as you have some kind of noise gate, it would work ok. Compression generally goes at the beginning of the signal chain because it destroys your signal to noise ratio. Any existing hiss, hum, buzz, etc. gets amplified relative to the overall signal level by the compressor, so it is best to keep it before any noise inducing items like overdrive/distortion boxes and high gain tube preamps. A good noise gate in front of the compressor can help a lot, but it becomes a give and take situation. The compressors try to increase sustain while noise gates tend to cut off your sustain. You have to find a balance between the two.

 

[surferdeac]

I'm considering getting a compressor (some with noise limiters) and prefer rack mounted gear to pedals. I have received mixed opinions as to whether a compressor would work right in my FX loop. Do any of you have any experience with this?

My Rack processor (G-major) has a onboard compressor. Works fine IMO. Tc electronic designs some very good processing units that work well in effect loops. For the price and quality of the sounds you can achieve the g major is very good. You have to patient with rackmount gear. I found that Pedals are generally easier to work with than rackmount gear in terms of the learning curve. I use a Midi board dmc ground controll pro with g-major which works wonders for me. No more "tap dancing" on pedals.

 

[Dolebludger]

Who all sells G Major processors? I'd like to look into that.

My rack (in connection order) uses a graphic EQ, a digital delay/chorus, and a Sonic maximizer -- as it is now

 

[surferdeac]

G major ------ tc electronic Its's the @#$@# bomb man. it does so much
they have a g major 2 now. pretty much the same with a couple added features.
of course you should probably buy a good Programable MIDI Foot controller to use with it. I use a Dmc ground controll.
not exactly cheap 400 new i think
g major use to be around 4 or 5 hundred i think you can get them for 3 now
i don't know how much the g major 2 is probably around 4 or 5 hundred my guess.

Go to the TC electronic home page they will tell you all about their products

 

[Dolebludger]

I'll check with GC to see if they have one I can try. I'm concerned about compressors and other effects because I like so few of them. Today I borrowed a friend's Boss GT-3. All I could get out of it were miles and miles of "ugly" with my attach squashed. About the G-Major, I must admit that I am not computer-age literate at all. I do better with knobs and switches than with "programable programs".

 

[surferdeac]

good luck Dolebludger

Yeah i grew up around computers and electronics so I guess that helped me a little bit with regards to how fast it took me to navigate and learn about my Rack. Its almost like playing guitar. The more time you put into fidgeting around with the thing the more you will understand.

If you don't want to spend time programming and learning about the thing, then I wouldn't recommend it however. THe Presets on the g major were designed to show you the possibilities the unit has, but it needs to be programmed/edited to really get the most out of it so the effects don't color your amps tones as much, but work with them instead.

 

[jaquetapus]

In my rack setup I use a dbx 166xl in the loop of my TriAxis. It sounds better to my ears than the G-Major one, but in all fairness, I haven't tweaked the G-Major one that much. I love having the compressor in the loop for the clean chorusy sounds. I have a compressor pedal [the mxr one I think] that I use in front of my Lonestar, but I don't like it quite as much.

-dave

 

[Dolebludger]

Thanks all. The fact that a compressor like the dbx 166 works well in a Mesa amp loop answers my initial question. That is the type of compressor in which I'm interested. A lot of the younger members grew up "thinking digital, programs, and menus". I'm 65 and grew up thinking "knobs and dials". Sure, I could learn programming on the G-Major, but the time would be better spent practicing and improving my playing.

Now, additional questions. In what order in my loop should the dbx (or similar) be placed? Also, there are a few rack compressors of this configuration that are
"optical compressors" (Carvin makes one) and some are VCA - based compressors. What are the pros and cons of each?

Thanks again!

 

[jaquetapus]

I'd say put the compressor first, so your effects won't get squished. That way you can smooth out the signal then go nuts with the modulation and delay without it turning into mush.

-dave

 

[Dolebludger]

Dave:

If you can believer it, I have no pedals. Everything other than guitar and amp is included in my rack. Effects (if you can call them that) are limited to a graphic EQ (my amp doesn't have one), and digital delay/chorus, and a BBE Sonic Maximizer.

My amp does have a pedal for channel switching, however, and it includes a solo boost stomp switch that I use a lot. A compressor/limiter such as the dbx 166 in the FX loop wouldn't knock out the solo boost, would it?

 

[jaquetapus]

I think the solo boost is usually after the effects loop, so you should be good. What kind of amp are you running? With your gear I'd put the stuff in this order:

Loop send -> compressor -> EQ -> BBE -> chorus/delay -> loop return

You can always move the stuff around and see how you like it best though. [I'd experiment with the BBE placement for example] I wouldn't use the limiter in a guitar setup though. [my 166xl is leftover from an old PA] Definitely the gate and compressor though. Depending on how noisy your EQ, BBE and chorus/delay units are, you could use one channel of the compressor for the compressor, then after the other stuff use the second channel of the compressor for the limiter.

-dave

 

[Dolebludger]

I'm using my Mesa Boogie Nomad 55 2X12.

 

[jaquetapus]

Gotcha. Yeah, the solo boost on the Nomad is after the effects loop. [I'd suggest modifying the effects loop to serial if you haven't yet]

-dave

 

[Dolebludger]

What would a mod of the FX loop to serial do for my sound? I've seen this issue before, and must confess that I don't understand it. Also, I bought my amp used (but mint), so is there an ease way for me to tell if this mod has already been done?

 

[UKBoogieboy]

Hi, a compressor works better after overdrive and distortion, brfore delay and reverb, and must be used before a volume pedal. An exellect compressor and noise gate is the classic Alesis 3630. I bought one in the early 90's, they are still current, that tells you something, they are studio quality and they are not exspensive.

http://www.alesis.com/3630

 

[Dolebludger]

OK, since I last posted, I bought a dbx 166 rack mounted compressor/gate/limiter. I first hooked it up in this order in my FX loop: graphic EQ - compressor unit - digital delay/chorus - Sonic Maximizer. I read your post and reversed the digital delay/chorus with the compressor as per your advice. I don't know if I like the change or not. It seems that the "delays" are pretty muted when they are inserted into the chain before compression. But it is a musically useful tone. If the delay intervals and number are set just right, the compressor squashes them into "super sustain"! So I may change back, as this gave me a very "high class problem". Too much sustain at "bedroom volumes!"

BTW, I don't like pedals and prefer rack gear, so I have no pedals. With all the gain on my Nomad's Ch. 3, I certainly do not need an overdrive pedal!

And, BTW, the dbx 166 compressor unit is an outstanding piece of rack gear. For dummys like me, it even has an "automatic button" that keeps attack and release in good shape that I can push when I "get lost in the knobs". And it has two full channels of compressor/gate/limiter, so I may use one on my sound system.

Finally, the solo boost works just fine -- unaltered by the compressor unit. This was one of my fears about adding a compressor unit, but no probs.

 

[Koreth]

With a serial effects loop, the signal path between the preamp and the power amp is interrupted, and sent out to whatever is in said loop. The then changed signal is returned to the amp and fed to the power amp. None of the original signal from the preamp reaches the power amp directly without going through the effects units first. Thus, "serial" because the FX loop is in series with the preamp and power amp. The signal path looks something like this:

preamp----->Effects----->power amp

In a parallel loop, in addition to the signal path of the loop itself, there is an additional one which bypasses the loop and feeds directly to the power amp. This unaffected or "dry" signal is then blended back together with the affected, or "wet" signal. Usually there is a blend control, as is the case in our Nomads and other Boogies with parallel loops. The idea is to preserve the amp's original signal, so as to avoid as much unwanted coloration of tone as possible. The internal bypass and the FX loop are parallel to each other, thus the name "parallel" loop. The signal path looks something like:

preamp----->Effects----->Blend----->power amp
   |_________bypass________|

The problem with a parallel loop comes in when you have digital effects in the loop. Digital effects have an ever so slight delay to them. It is small, usually only a few miliseconds, IIRC, but that's enough to shift the effected signal slightly out of phase with the dry signal in the amp. When the two are blended back together, you'll get a phasing or flanging effect in addition to whatever effects were applied in the loop. Depending on the units in the loop, this can sometimes happen even if the effects are off and bypassed.

"But wait!" you say. "I can just set my blend control to 100% and use all of the effected signal and none of the dry signal, thus effectively getting a serial loop, freeing myself from from the phasing effect caused by parallel loops. Haha! I am clever!" Close, and you're thinking in the right direction, but not quite. In our Nomads (and I suspect in just about any other amp that uses a parallel loop, the blend control is simply a potentiometer. Unless you have some sort of special potentiometer which when turned fully to one side disconnects the other (I don't know if such exists) for your blend control, the bypass part of the parallel loop is still connected when the blend knob is turned to 100%. Thus, you don't quite have a fully serial loop, and thus you'll still get an ever so slight phasing or flanging effect through your loop. It might be so subtle that you really have to listen close to notice it, or it might be painfully obvious and render your otherwise favorite digital effect useless in the FX loop. Either way, the only way to completely eliminate the problem, is to convert the parallel loop to serial, so it plays nice with all effects, not just analog ones.

That was probably longer than necessary, but does that clarify at all for you?

 

[Dolebludger]

Yes, that does clarify the matter for me. I do have a digital delay in my rack (and probably some digital elements in the compressor?), but my last effect in my chain is a Sonic Maximizer which has as its purpose the bringing of these frequencies back in phase. To my ear, there is no delay or "out of phase" sounds at all, as the rig is set up. From your description, it is pretty clear that my Nomad has a parallel effects loop, as it has the blend knob. So two questions. First, would I benefit from a serties loop? And second, do you know about what a shop would charge to convert the amp to series?

 

[Koreth]

I have only just started playing with my FX loop as I start to try to get FX and a pedal board together for a live sound in time for the next gig in a couple months. So, I don't have enough experience to say whether or not it is necessary with your setup or if you would benefit or not. Nomad100hd had his amp modded to a serial mod and seems to like it.

What I would do is find an authorized Mesa/Boogie repair shop in your area and talk to him about the serial loop mod. He may be able to tell you if its something you'll be able to benefit from or not. Also if you do get the mod done, demo the amp right there in the shop if you can, and if you don't like it, then the tech should be able to reverse the mod fairly quickly (It's a rather simple mod). As for price, I'm not sure on that. I once got a quote from the local authorized shop to have the serial loop mod done, and if I recall correctly, it was less than $100, but I'm not sure.