Can a MV:25 get grainy, grindy mids?

[elvis]

I am fairly new to Marks, and am aware that they are known for smooth, liquid stuff.

If I want more grind in the mids, especially lower mids (without flub), how would I dial that? Or is this not the amp to use?

It's difficult to describe, but I'm interested in a more ragged-y breakup, maybe a bit of brown and beyond. Not TONS of saturation. More something that gives presence and heaviness without muddiness.

I also have a Mini Rec, so that is an alternative platform for me.

 

[Hypnotoad696]

This will sound sarcastic but I assure you it isn't. If you're new to mark, read the instruction manual. They dont dial like other amps, even other boogies. The trebel nob, for example, is more of a trebel/gain booster than it is an actual trebel dial. The slider functions more as that. Similar eccentricities exist with the mids and presence as well. Before blindly poking at the nobs looking for your tone, really, read the instructions!

 

[elvis]

Reasonable advice. Given that I have read it and have been turning knobs for months, anything specific?

 

[primal]

Hard to tell exactly what you are looking for, but you did mention brown sound so I'll take a swing.

What you are talking about sounds (if I understand you correctly) more like something you will find on the crunch setting on channel 1.

Have you spent much time there?

I love playing Van Halen, and I have been using crunch exclusively for that.

Here are my settings, but getting new speakers next week (Eminence CV-75) and they may change

Crunch
Treble - 1:00
Mid - 9:00
Bass - 8:30-8:45
Gain - 3:00
Presence - 12:00

No EQ

 

[dodger916]

Too bad there's no master volume; you could lower the channel volume and boost the output to get the power tubes cooking while using the gain for flavoring. In a 10/25 watt amp running 2xEL84s, that should be fairly easy with a master volume.

 

[elvis]

Hard to tell exactly what you are looking for, but you did mention brown sound so I'll take a swing.

What you are talking about sounds (if I understand you correctly) more like something you will find on the crunch setting on channel 1.

Have you spent much time there?

I love playing Van Halen, and I have been using crunch exclusively for that.

Here are my settings, but getting new speakers next week (Eminence CV-75) and they may change

Crunch
Treble - 1:00
Mid - 9:00
Bass - 8:30-8:45
Gain - 3:00
Presence - 12:00

No EQ

Thanks! You're right, crunch has closer to that flavor. I tried your settings and then cranked treble a bit and it was closer. Still, I would like even more grit. I tried Mark IV mode and also cranked treble and 2200/6600 and got some grit, but only in the high frequencies. Cranking mids doesn't quite get there.

 

[elvis]

Too bad there's no master volume; you could lower the channel volume and boost the output to get the power tubes cooking while using the gain for flavoring. In a 10/25 watt amp running 2xEL84s, that should be fairly easy with a master volume.

I'm confused. There is a master volume. I'll give that a shot as well.

 

[dodger916]

Too bad there's no master volume; you could lower the channel volume and boost the output to get the power tubes cooking while using the gain for flavoring. In a 10/25 watt amp running 2xEL84s, that should be fairly easy with a master volume.

I'm confused. There is a master volume. I'll give that a shot as well.

Having a true master or "Output" volume allows a global output volume control while providing flexibility as to where saturation occurs, preamp stage, output stage, or both. The V:25 has a control labelled "Master", but it really serves as a channel volume. Many other Boogies (big Marks, DC's, etc.) have two stages of volume control: the channel masters which control the 12ax7 outputs, and the "Output" control, a true master volume independent of the channel volumes, which is the "throttle" for the output tubes. This allows me to run the Output volume relatively high (above .5!) to get some power tube grit while keeping the channel volumes low to keep the volume under control. Or if I want to have a preamp-saturated tone, I run the Output (master) low and turn up the channel volumes to saturate the 12ax7s. Or, when I have my channel tones and volumes set, the Output allows for global volume changes without messing with the channels at all. In all cases, the gain control can be used to adjust the tone, with the channel volumes used to keep the balance.

With the V:25, in order to get the power tube grit without this global master or "Output" control, you have to keep the "Master" volume up, which might be too loud for a given situation. In order to tame volume, the gain must be cut or the wattage dropped. Again, having a true master or "Output" volume allows a global volume control while providing flexibility as to where saturation occurs, preamp, output, or both.

 

[elvis]

So I tried pretty much every combination of amps and cabs I have this morning. Took a while...

My Electradyne gets great ragged mids while keeping a huge low-end.. Not quite the pushed rattle-y mids that I heard recently from a Bogner Goldfinger, but nice and buzzy.

My Mini Rectifier had pretty big low-end, tight with good punch, and lots of mid saturation. The mids were maybe a touch more well-behaved than I am looking for, but awfully close.

By comparison, the mids in the Mark are just too well-behaved. The amp is really tight and controlled. Perfect for a lot of things, not so much for what I am looking for right now.

So I am THIS close to finally setting up the Mark-ti-fier...

 

[primal]

On crunch, I take it you did mess with the mid control boost? You might try cranking that past noon.

Forgot you had the Electra Dyne.

Much less compressed than mark series.

That will get you closest of all "I think".

MAN I miss that amp. Fighting with myself over putting my 2204 up for sale in order to pick up another one. Of the boogies I used to own I miss that amp the most.

 

[elvis]

On crunch, I take it you did mess with the mid control boost? You might try cranking that past noon.

Forgot you had the Electra Dyne.

Much less compressed than mark series.

That will get you closest of all "I think".

MAN I miss that amp. Fighting with myself over putting my 2204 up for sale in order to pick up another one. Of the boogies I used to own I miss that amp the most.

Thanks for the comments!

Yes, I did mess with the mids and turned the mids all the way up. It seemed to smooth it more than articulate it. Where I got the most ragged-ness was to turn up the Treble and/or 2200 and 6600 GEQ sliders. I found that interesting because I thought that I was looking for more low mids.

Anyway, it really comes down to the "rocks in a dryer" sort of tone that points toward a Dual Rec. I may finally look at a T-verb or Roadster. Kind of crazy, since I don't need that kind of volume.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Elvis,

Definitely the crunch channel is where you'd have to look for that but... I think the issue you're having as that both the Mids knob, and the 750 slider may both be too wide of a frequency boost for what you're after. I found great tones all over the place in Crunch mode, but one day got a great tone and was thinking similar to you "If I could just get more low mids kick, it would be perfect" and I couldn't quite get it. When going for a more VH type tone with more upper mids kick, I got kind of the same thing. Got real close, even "good enough' but not quite there. The answer is more, finer bands of EQ. My 10 band MXR get's closer to either than the built in 5 band does, because they are octave wide controls, where the 5 band is octave and a half. I might drop my Alesis 31 band in the loop just for fun.

 

[elvis]

Could be. Thanks!

 

[loylo69]

Have you tested to cranck the presence control?
I don't have the V:25. But on both my IIC and III, I feel that crancking the presence at approx. 8/10 brings me that marshall grind. That is upper mid grind, not low mid grind you are searching for.

In conjonction with the presence crancking described above, I set the treble pretty high (near 9) and also the 2200 slider near max. And then I adjust the 6600 slider somewhere lower than the 2200 slider, to tame the ear piercing frequencies with those previous settings.

As I said, I don't have the V:25. But as it designed as his previous big bothers, those settings may work.
In fact, the upper presence range somewhat disconnects the negative feedback loop in the mark amps, just like the recto amps in raw modes. So it feels less compressed and less "well-behaved". The 6600 slider could be seen like the presence control on the recto in raw modes, which is used to tame the top end. It acts like a high treble cut.

 

[elvis]

Great suggestions, thanks!

 

[J.J]

One other thing, speakers play a role in this. A greenback type speaker will help bring out the grit and grain as well as shifting the spectrum it occurs in.

 

[loylo69]

Good point too. :wink:

 

[screamingdaisy]

One other thing, speakers play a role in this. A greenback type speaker will help bring out the grit and grain as well as shifting the spectrum it occurs in.

This was the point I was going to make. The G12M-25 has a more harmonic, grinding midrange than the V30.

 

[elvis]

Well, OK. But when I am comparing to other amps played through the same cabs, The Mini Rec and the Electradyne are way more mid-saturated. I switched my Dyne to EL34 last night and it was very grindy. I sort of wish it had a bit more gain, though.

I will likely try the V:25 through the power amp of the Dyne, but just for funsies.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Interesting. To me Marks have a more aggressive, grinding midrange than Rectos... But I suspect that we're probably using the same word to describe a different sound. IIC+ mode has always produced that sound that makes me think "crunchberries".

If Mesa is still using JJ 12AX7s as their stock tube it might be worth throwing something brighter in there to bring out the upper mids (EHX, Tung Sol, etc)