jdurso
Well-known member
I know this has been discussed ad nauseum but I've scoured this forum as well as a plethora of other sites looking to see how to best tame the volume of this amp. Just to clarify before i say anything else, I'm not necassarily talking about wanting to push the power amp more to get MORE poweramp gain, in fact the thing i love about the ED is the insane amount of headroom, especially on the cleans. I also don't expect the ED or any other high wattage amp to perform at bedroom levels... I've never expected that and personally I've only ever owned high wattage amps because I like the ability to turn it up and shake the room and be able to compete with an entire band while jamming/gigging.
So with that said, the one thing that still leaves me scratching my head is how quickly this amp reaches those gigging volumes. With my Roadster I was always able to get the preamp set to the tone I was after and use the output (master volume) to determine how loud the amp was since the power section had so much clean headroom without much power tube coloration/compression. Now granted, the ED is a different design altogether and seems to have a lot more play going on between the pre and power amp sections, but since it still does have a master volume, I'm puzzled as to why it goes from 0-60 so quickly where all the other Boogies I've owned have a more gradual increase in volume before you get to stage levels.
This is what mainly lead me on a search for some way to tame the volume to where I can get moderately loud (note that I'm not talking bedroom levels, but also not stage levels) without shaking my entire house. What I will say before anything else is that I have the wide combo with a Scumback h75 installed, so the speaker and cabinet design maybe contributing to the insane bass coupling I'm getting (my house's foundation is a crawl and all the floors are hardwood so thise could be contributing as well). What I'm after, to me at least, seems fairly reasonable and very achievable I'm just not sure what the best/cheapest way to go about it... hence why I'm turning to you guys
What I'd want ideally is the tone I get when the master is up at about 9:30 (all other settings remain the same) but with the volume i get when the master is around 8. With the volume is around 8 on the ED it was around the same volume on my Roadster with the Output around 9:30, which for me is where the amp starts to open up yet is not at the levels needed to compete with a drummer and is definitely not bedroom levels. I am open to the idea that the speaker paired with the ED and the fact that its a combo compared to the Roadster through my Basson 2x12 is a contributing difference but I've tried the ED through the Basson only and if anything it maybe louder. So here are some of the ideas I'm throwing around:
1. Attenuator: To me the idea of an attentuator is when you desire to run the amp louder to get more power amp saturation which is not really what I want. I like the headroom I get, especially with the master around 9:30 but with less volume. Maybe an attenuator could nail this exactly for me but I'm not sold given I wasn't thrilled with using attenuators in the past. Plus you are working the amp harder which puts more wear and tear on the amp/tubes. Plus from what I've owned and read about, unless you're ready to drop some serious dime on the Rivera Rock Crusher, Ultimate Attenuator or Aracom Power Rox, you're not getting the tone you'd want/expect. The Weber looks like a good bang for your buck but I'd really like to explore other alternatives first.
2. Power Scaling: I started reading up on the London Power Scaling and the Hall's VVR and this looks like something closer to what I'm imagining especially if its wired to power scale the whole amp instead of just the power section. They also seem to be relatively cheap options between parts and the labor of a good tech. It also seems to be a good option since it claims you'd be running your tubes more efficiently which when compared to an attenuator is a plus to me. The one thing I'm leary of (and this could be from a point of ignorance), it still seems to be for someone who's after power amp clipping/saturation, rather than someone whose just looking to kill some dBs without killing the tone. The other downside is, in many ways its a permenant mod to the amp... if it works for the person thats great but if not, well then that really sucks. The one question I have is how close is this option to the RA's power scaling?
3. Speakers: This seems to be the easiest thing to change, whether it be going back to stock (c90) or looking at alternatives that have some sort of built in attenuaion. The Eminence Reignmaker and Maverick seem to be pretty good options considering i'm not looking for bedroom level volume reduction but I'm not sure how much i'll like the speakers tone which to me is more important than whether it can drop 8-9 dbs. If I were to go that direction i'd like something with a voicing more similar to the c90 so the Maverick seems closer of the two. The other option I've seen is the Fluxtone which from everything I've read and heard is the real deal but it also comes with a price and some extra hardware to mount somewhere. the Eminence speakers are a very clean replacement... the fluxtone would require a little more work that i'm not sure I'd be able to do plus they carry a hefty price ($600-900 per speaker).
4. Ditch the combo - Most of the EDs I've played have been combos and I really never noticed the loudness issue until i brought mine home. Again, I'm not running the stock speaker but maybe the combo is inherently "bigger" sounding than say a head with a different cabinet design than the combo. Maybe something like a head and a ported 1x12 cab with the right speaker would better tame the low end and overall percieved volume since it will be more directional than the combo. Not completely sold on that idea, just throwing it out there to see what others have experienced going from combo to head.
5. Volume Reduction in the Loop - One thing I tried many moons ago was an EQ pedal in the loop where I would basically reduce the preamp signal being fed to the power amp. these seemed to work pretty well but I was only experimenting with it then and never really used that method a lot. i read someone here was doing something similar with another device. i know EHX has something similar and calling it an attenuator but its basically just a volume reduction pedal. Could be the cheapest way to achieve what I want whether it be that bedal or an EQ (i could even try this with my AXE-FX before I sell it).
6. Modding the Gain Trim - Not even sure if this would do what I'm thinking but could the Gain trim be modded to trim all three modes at the same time. I ask because when I get the Master to about 9:30 and start trimming the gain on each channel individually it seems to get close to what I'm after but this will only be for one channel. It maybe redundant, but if that acted more like a global trim or if an additional trim was added as a global trim (in addition to the gain trim), that could work for what I'm thinking. But the more I think about it the more that ressembles #5, just built into the amp.
Honestly I see myself with this amp for a LONG time so I'm open to just about anything (even just returning it to stock with a c90 and playing it in a well padded room). What i don't want to do is try all these expensive options to just figure out its as simple as a pedal in the loop (~$40-50) or something like the Eminence Maverick (~$120).
One last thing... has anybody investigated the guts of the ED and the RA and done a comparison? I'm wondering how different these amps really are from one another. Are they so different that someone couldn't figure out how to implement the power scaling of the RA in the ED? The designs maybe so radically different that its not wise or feasible but it maybe worth asking the question.
So with that said, the one thing that still leaves me scratching my head is how quickly this amp reaches those gigging volumes. With my Roadster I was always able to get the preamp set to the tone I was after and use the output (master volume) to determine how loud the amp was since the power section had so much clean headroom without much power tube coloration/compression. Now granted, the ED is a different design altogether and seems to have a lot more play going on between the pre and power amp sections, but since it still does have a master volume, I'm puzzled as to why it goes from 0-60 so quickly where all the other Boogies I've owned have a more gradual increase in volume before you get to stage levels.
This is what mainly lead me on a search for some way to tame the volume to where I can get moderately loud (note that I'm not talking bedroom levels, but also not stage levels) without shaking my entire house. What I will say before anything else is that I have the wide combo with a Scumback h75 installed, so the speaker and cabinet design maybe contributing to the insane bass coupling I'm getting (my house's foundation is a crawl and all the floors are hardwood so thise could be contributing as well). What I'm after, to me at least, seems fairly reasonable and very achievable I'm just not sure what the best/cheapest way to go about it... hence why I'm turning to you guys
What I'd want ideally is the tone I get when the master is up at about 9:30 (all other settings remain the same) but with the volume i get when the master is around 8. With the volume is around 8 on the ED it was around the same volume on my Roadster with the Output around 9:30, which for me is where the amp starts to open up yet is not at the levels needed to compete with a drummer and is definitely not bedroom levels. I am open to the idea that the speaker paired with the ED and the fact that its a combo compared to the Roadster through my Basson 2x12 is a contributing difference but I've tried the ED through the Basson only and if anything it maybe louder. So here are some of the ideas I'm throwing around:
1. Attenuator: To me the idea of an attentuator is when you desire to run the amp louder to get more power amp saturation which is not really what I want. I like the headroom I get, especially with the master around 9:30 but with less volume. Maybe an attenuator could nail this exactly for me but I'm not sold given I wasn't thrilled with using attenuators in the past. Plus you are working the amp harder which puts more wear and tear on the amp/tubes. Plus from what I've owned and read about, unless you're ready to drop some serious dime on the Rivera Rock Crusher, Ultimate Attenuator or Aracom Power Rox, you're not getting the tone you'd want/expect. The Weber looks like a good bang for your buck but I'd really like to explore other alternatives first.
2. Power Scaling: I started reading up on the London Power Scaling and the Hall's VVR and this looks like something closer to what I'm imagining especially if its wired to power scale the whole amp instead of just the power section. They also seem to be relatively cheap options between parts and the labor of a good tech. It also seems to be a good option since it claims you'd be running your tubes more efficiently which when compared to an attenuator is a plus to me. The one thing I'm leary of (and this could be from a point of ignorance), it still seems to be for someone who's after power amp clipping/saturation, rather than someone whose just looking to kill some dBs without killing the tone. The other downside is, in many ways its a permenant mod to the amp... if it works for the person thats great but if not, well then that really sucks. The one question I have is how close is this option to the RA's power scaling?
3. Speakers: This seems to be the easiest thing to change, whether it be going back to stock (c90) or looking at alternatives that have some sort of built in attenuaion. The Eminence Reignmaker and Maverick seem to be pretty good options considering i'm not looking for bedroom level volume reduction but I'm not sure how much i'll like the speakers tone which to me is more important than whether it can drop 8-9 dbs. If I were to go that direction i'd like something with a voicing more similar to the c90 so the Maverick seems closer of the two. The other option I've seen is the Fluxtone which from everything I've read and heard is the real deal but it also comes with a price and some extra hardware to mount somewhere. the Eminence speakers are a very clean replacement... the fluxtone would require a little more work that i'm not sure I'd be able to do plus they carry a hefty price ($600-900 per speaker).
4. Ditch the combo - Most of the EDs I've played have been combos and I really never noticed the loudness issue until i brought mine home. Again, I'm not running the stock speaker but maybe the combo is inherently "bigger" sounding than say a head with a different cabinet design than the combo. Maybe something like a head and a ported 1x12 cab with the right speaker would better tame the low end and overall percieved volume since it will be more directional than the combo. Not completely sold on that idea, just throwing it out there to see what others have experienced going from combo to head.
5. Volume Reduction in the Loop - One thing I tried many moons ago was an EQ pedal in the loop where I would basically reduce the preamp signal being fed to the power amp. these seemed to work pretty well but I was only experimenting with it then and never really used that method a lot. i read someone here was doing something similar with another device. i know EHX has something similar and calling it an attenuator but its basically just a volume reduction pedal. Could be the cheapest way to achieve what I want whether it be that bedal or an EQ (i could even try this with my AXE-FX before I sell it).
6. Modding the Gain Trim - Not even sure if this would do what I'm thinking but could the Gain trim be modded to trim all three modes at the same time. I ask because when I get the Master to about 9:30 and start trimming the gain on each channel individually it seems to get close to what I'm after but this will only be for one channel. It maybe redundant, but if that acted more like a global trim or if an additional trim was added as a global trim (in addition to the gain trim), that could work for what I'm thinking. But the more I think about it the more that ressembles #5, just built into the amp.
Honestly I see myself with this amp for a LONG time so I'm open to just about anything (even just returning it to stock with a c90 and playing it in a well padded room). What i don't want to do is try all these expensive options to just figure out its as simple as a pedal in the loop (~$40-50) or something like the Eminence Maverick (~$120).
One last thing... has anybody investigated the guts of the ED and the RA and done a comparison? I'm wondering how different these amps really are from one another. Are they so different that someone couldn't figure out how to implement the power scaling of the RA in the ED? The designs maybe so radically different that its not wise or feasible but it maybe worth asking the question.