Another newbie question...

[rcc]

Ok, so I'm in love with my recently acquired Mark IV. However, I'm wondering about a couple of things. Namely, when cranked to band volumes (heavy rock/metal) the tone thins out and gets harsh. It's like all the warmth and compression and rich preamp distortion goes away or something. Yes, I know the eq has to be adjusted for different volumes and I've done that but am having real difficulty compensating.

So, I'm wondering if there's a way to set it at a lower volume and then feed the output to a separate power amp (SS or tube) that does nothing but make that sound loud enough to hear with a band. That is, doesn't interact with or change the tone/sound at all. Just increases the volume. Does this make sense at all?? It seems like this should occur naturally and especially with the Mark IV design but I guess not. For full disclosure here's all the gear in play -

Les Paul Classic with classic 57's, along with a Jackson mahogany bodied guitar with Duncan 59's

Mesa Stiletto cab loaded with G12K100 drivers


Nothing in the loop or out front. Just guitar to amp to cab. Any thoughts, ideas, feedback?? Thanks in advance!

 

[tony777]

It seems to me you need new tubes.

 

[rcc]

Thanks, though I should add (and should have stated originally) that the tubes are in fact new - fresh set of Mesa pre's and 6l6's.

 

[tony777]

That's weird, the MKIV should be one of the thickest amps out there.

 

[rcc]

And indeed it is! I'm totally head over heels about the amp, it's just that all the "goodness" seems to evaporate into thin harshness when cranked to band levels. I've compensated some, but it's not enough, hence my original question/post. Thx!

 

[Restless Rocks]

Electrovoice EVM 12L smooth, pure sonic bliss at any level.

 

[mr_fender]

Are you on Class A or Simul-Class? Tweed or Full Power? That makes a big difference at higher volumes, when the power amp is contributing more to the overall tone. My MKIVa sounds fatter and more punchy when cranked in Simul-Class and full power. Tweed and Class A sounds a bit thinner and "squishy". YMMV though. Experiment with the presence shift on the lead and rhythm 2 channels (push-pull). That affects the upper harmonics and gives different high end shades.

The Mark IV, and most tube amps for that matter, are completely different creatures at low volume vs cranked. You MUST create your tones from scratch at gig volume. Setting things up at bedroom volume and then just cranking up the Output Level at the gig just doesn't work. You've got to get some juice flowing through those power tube before they really shine. My amp really comes alive at about 4 on the Output Level. It still sounds great at bedroom levels, but it's definitely not the same.

 

[rcc]

Good catch, and bad omission on my part - I'm running it simul-class, full power. The lead channel is what I'm using 95% of the time since the type of music is rather heavy rock/metal-ish. I've eq'd and voiced things on the amp for band volumes, but just can't get rid of the harshness or more irksome trebly edge to it like I can at half that volume, let alone bedroom levels.

I wonder if a compressor in the chain would help? I wouldn't think so since the IV is a rather compressed sounding amp to begin with, but maybe?

 

[kiff]

you said you retubed it. preamp tubes too? if so, try swapping back one of the old ones in each socket. i did this recently and found that a couple of tubes I had would add a LOT of brightness/presence. that could be part of the problem.

 

[Xqzdust]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but, it's my understanding that the effect of the presence control increases as the your volume is increased. Try rolling back the presence control to see if I'm right.

Have you gigged in more than one place with it? Sometimes room acoustics have an effect.

 

[mr_fender]

Is bright pulled on the lead channel? I know there are some subtle tonal differences between the IV a's and b's, but the MKIV is a pretty bright sounding amp. Could be the speakers too. You could try some speakers with a smoother high end. Celestions can get a little icepicky at times. I'm pushing one EVM12L and one Eminence Delta Pro 12A.

My usual lead channel setup for a general heavy rhythm tone is:

Gain 6-7 pulled
Treble 6-7
Bass 2
Mids 4-5
Drive 6-7 pulled
Presence 2 pulled
classic V on the graphic EQ
Simul-class
Harmonics
Full Power

I play with either a American Strat with a Duncan Lil'59 in the bridge or a Japanese Les Paul clone with a Duncan JB/Jazz setup depending on the tone I'm shooting for.

Another trick is to drive an 8 ohm cab with the 4 ohm output. This is a safe mismatch and can darken the tone a little at the cost of a little volume.

 

[rcc]

Thanks for the suggestions/ideas. I can definitely say the bright isn't pulled, and the G12K100's are a much darker and smoother speaker than any I'm aware of in the celestion line (well, for high gain stuff). I'll look into other speakers though. As for gigging, I've used it in 3 different locales, all pretty acoustically different, and have the same consistent issue.

Oh, and regarding the tubes, yes, it's a full re-tube and I have indeed swapped back old ones just to test out that very theory (that new ones could brighten things too much). I'm wondering if I should look at different power tubes than the standard Mesa ones to help tame the brightness? Also thinking about a compressor still...

 

[Daxman73]

Another trick is to drive an 8 ohm cab with the 4 ohm output. This is a safe mismatch and can darken the tone a little at the cost of a little volume.

Wow, this seems like a cool idea...So it doesn't change the character of the sound?...I'm also having pretty much the same problems noted here in this thread as well...Basically, I'm getting good low volume tones and below average high volume tones...I do understand that the amp usually has to be set up differently for different volumes and I'm wondering if I just don't know enough about the workings on this great amp enough yet...I was a Recto guy (still am), but I love the Mark IV...Another thing is, I'm pretty sure the tubes are old, but not sure that they're bad...I have some coming this week and I will experiment with them...Also, I'm a guy who prefers to dial in the channels without the eq and use that feature as an accessory, mainly volume/lead boosts...I don't want my Tone to be made or broken on the eq, know what I mean?...Any more insight into playing the Mark IV loud?

 

[kiff]

the G12K100's are a much darker and smoother speaker than any I'm aware of in the celestion line ...

are the K100's any dif than the T100's? I find that with my T-100's I can roll off some highs on the eq without making it sound dull (like the v30's would).

I have indeed swapped back old ones just to test out that very theory (that new ones could brighten things too much)..

I have some mullard reissues in my preamp. when I put them in I noticed a significant difference. they seem to have a pretty flat response as opposed to the old tubes. they really took off the bright edge and gave it a nice straightforward tone. you might want to give them a shot.

Also, I agree w/ mr_fender about the EV's. They sound really good, not harsh at all. but for me, since I play mostly hard rock/metal I had to use the eq all of the time to scoops the mids...

 

[sixtonoize]

You might want to try pulling less mids out with the GEQ.

Generally, an overly-scooped sound will sound great quiet, but really fall apart when you crank it up.

 

[mesa verde]

Well you don't mention whether you are playing at full power setting but I'm assuming you are. Here's the thing: a lot of people get great scooped tones at lower volumes. Nice rich full sound. Crank it up though and there are no mids to support it or punch through. The only thing you can do with super scooped out tones is sheer volume to get them to blend into a loud mix and not get drowned out. Tha magic of electric tones is in the mids.
Are you playing with a super mid scooped tone setting ? If so then you'll never be able to sit in a louder mix on tone alone. You then start to keep turning up and turning up because all you can do is 'make it louder' and it still doesn't have any mid punch so it still sounds like crap until you start to get to stadium levels.
Personally the super scooped mid tone settings only sound good at lower recording levels or at deafening arena volume levels.
If you want to have good punch and cut and stand out nicely in the mix then start dialing in the mids. At first you might think they sound a little 'honked' but step back 20 or 30 feet and those mids sit nice in the band mix and you can actually punch out leads or crunchy rhythms using LESS volume since now your TONE cuts.
I have seen it so many times - players using amp Volume as their crutch when properly adjusted mids are what makes your sound stand up in the mix and then turn back on the guitar volume to sit back in the rhythm again (but those mids still keep you in the mix and you won't get lost).
Learn to dial in your mids! Yeah I know at first if you are a scooped player then it won't seem right -- but trust me on this - a little bit more mids than your ear might currently like will probably be the perfect tone setup for you. At least that's imho.