An Occasional Chugger... Getting the Badlander to sound like a Classic Rect

[rarebitusa]

Yea, I'm much more experienced in the classic/hard rock/heavy blues genre. Currently my Badlander is setup for that style and it really delivers on the Crunch front. I know this is Mesas "New/Fresh Take" on the Rect. with a much tighter lower end but I'm curious how close it can get to that boomy rect thing. Only an occasional chugger here and while I'd love to have a real DR there's no studio room plus I have no shame in kinda faking that tone a bit.

Any tips on amp settings, signal chain even speaker/cabs. FWIW routinely run a GEQ in the loop. TIA

 

[Neptical]

Don't own a Badlander just yet ( would love the 50 ). But as a Recto,RoV, Mark III, Express 5:50+ and F50/100 owner, everything gets very chuggy with an SD-1 in the front ( to tighten ) and an EQ in the loop (less bass on amp, more lows on EQ ). Lots of bite but also fat/thumpy.
Of course, pending cab/speakers as well. Love my V30 straight 412 for this the best. Works fantastic for all my Mesa's so I'm assuming the Badlander would just sound amazing as well.

 

[bandit2013]

I generally boost the bass control up just enough before it gets woofy. Also increase the midrange and drop the treble down a bit. Do what you want with the gain control. Sort of the same trick I use with the RA100 but they are unrelated amps in all respects.

You could try the 5BGEQ on the front end instead of in the loop. Just an idea and never tried that move yet.

I would assume a pedal up front will aid in getting to that sound. The BAD just cannot replicate the sub-harmonic content as the dual Rectifier since it is a hybrid design. The BAD lacks the cold clipper circuit that is responsible sub-harmonic content you get from the Dual Rec (for me it is the Roadster or MWDR). The other thing that is missing is the negative feedback disconnect like you get with Modern mode on the gain channels. The closest to that concept would be the Mark V90 in Extreme mode on CH3.

I would agree with Neptical on the V30 closed back cabs. That would have a tight response. BAD sounds awesome through the V212 as well as the slant front Standard Recto 412 cab. I do not have a straight cab to make use of. Actually, I feel they are quite universal for many other applications other than chugging.

 

[bandit2013]

7 string anybody? The BAD does not disappoint with the 7. First amp with the Rectifier branding that I can run a 7 (Baritone scale or standard scale).

 

[bandit2013]

Nothing to see here, Chug along, keep moving, Chug along.

Just watched a history on the 2CH rectifier from its roots to the Rev G. Sure they had differences and such but one thing in common, they all used Chinese 7025 preamp tubes (unobtanium Beijing Square Foil Getter 6N4-J that Mesa used in late 80's through the 90's). Sort of wonder how much different the amps would have sounded with the current Mesa 12AX7 (ECC83s). Not trying to turn this discussion into a history lesson or to alter its course into preamp tube choice. For the record, just for S&G a while back after cleaning up the Roadster I decided to shotgun the preamp with all unobtanium tubes. V1 has a Mesa branded one, and the rest were Ruby (same tube but the Rubies were not recommended for V1 based on Doug's Tubes remarks). Talk about a total transformation. That made the Roadster work with the 7 string. Still had that deep sub-harmonic content but was tight and more balanced. Palm muting techniques did not drown out either. Will have to try that trick with the MWDR and see what happens. Yeah, those old 7025/12AX7 tubes will also work in the BAD but it will not give you that low end harmonics. It does add in some more gain characteristics. They are safe to use in the DC coupled cathode follower tone stack driver (V2) so no fear of instant failure like some Russian tubes. Mesa phased out the Chinese tubes in 2008 when they also introduced the Russian tubes, then the switch to the JJ tube in 2009-2010. The odd thing, the Mesa Mark IVB I bought new in 2000 had the JJ tubes as originals. I assume the changes for different amp models occurred at different phases since the 2000 Mark IVB had the JJ tubes. They were not marked with JJ logo either, they had Mesa printed on them just like the unobtanium Chinese tubes used in the Mark III.

Since the BAD is a hybrid of the IIC+ lead drive circuit blended in with the back half of the Rectifier amp, there is some sub-harmonic content, just enough so it does not dominate the spectrum of tone. Also, the post gain tone stack driver will provide a different characteristic to that lead drive circuit much like the Mark VII in crunch and VII modes. 6L6GC tubes can squeeze out some additional low end but it will not be as tight as the EL34 tubes as well as places a volume drop penalty on the output. At least with that, you can run the channel master higher to get to the same output level as the EL34 with it set to 9am. STR445 green, or grey code, STR448 grey code will give you some decent grind. Avoid the red and yellows as that will not give you the satisfaction. The BAD does rely on the early distortion effect of the green or grey tubes. It is not all preamp distortion. That is something I learned with the JP2C as it too is a Class AB amp. Sort of wonder what the BAD would sound like slaved into a Simul-Class amp. Just note that the channel masters will not have any effect on the loudness if you do that. It will be at full volume if the amp you are slaving into has no global volume control that follows the FX loop.

 

[Neptical]

7 string anybody? The BAD does not disappoint with the 7. First amp with the Rectifier branding that I can run a 7 (Baritone scale or standard scale).

This is why I've done the Series loop Mod + EQ in loop on all my Series 1 Singles/RoVs ( also F50/F100) plus goose the front with an SD-1. 7 string are just massive with so much cut. Modern or Vintage work great for different flavors. Change between my V30, T75, K85 or EVM 4x12 cabs...even MORE variety. Lots!

This is when playing can last several hours shifting through different amp/cab configurations, EQ, guitars, etc. Fun stuff!

Since the BAD is a hybrid of the IIC+ lead drive circuit

Interesting - didn't know that actually!

 

[bandit2013]

I poked around the amp to see what was inside as the schematics have not been leaked out yet. Since it was a new amp, I had no clue if there were any cathode follower circuits. Had I taken notice to the manual, V2AB stated as tone stack driver, well that was obvious. That was what I went hunting for in the first place. Rectifier = usually has a DC coupled Cathode follower tone stack driver, yep, the BAD has that as V2, not sure why I thought the manual listed it as gain stages. Will have to look at the one that came with the amp. I did a quick poke around V1 and V3 but misread some of the cathode resistance values on the first look. Thought that V2B had a 15k ohm cathode resistor so I made the assumption it had a cold clipper. Shortly after that I decided to take another look but used a different meter so I do not miss the decimal point. this time to check the plate resistors too. V1A has the typical 100k plate, 1.5k cathode resistor, V3B is the same. The clean mode uses just those two gain stages. V1B has an 82.5k plate and 1.5k cathode resistor and V3A has a 270k plate and 3.3k cathode resistor. Well that pattern was very familiar, it is the lead drive circuit from a IIC+, III, IV, or V. At least they two stages are in separate tubes. After I made a graphical representation of the tube task chart. I more or less did this for the Mark VII as it was not as easy to follow. So this is what I discovered but in repetition of what I posted a few times before. Sorry for being so lame. It is basically like the Mark VII in crunch and VII modes. Difference is how the tone stack is managed. Tone stack is plate driven with the Mark and will always remain in front of V1B. With relay magic, the lead drive circuit gets inserted in front of the tone stack. Normally the lead drive circuit would be after V1B as it is for the IIB, IIC+ and IV modes. The table below just shows the similarities of the Mark VII and Badlander. I was curious and thought if it did have a cold clipper, what was different and if I could mod the Roadster and see what happens. No cold clipper. How could they call this a Rectifier? I think even Mesa is confused as to what to call it. They made a separate page on their website for it too but also have it in the Rectifier page as well. Wonder if it is going to be one of those forgotten amps like the RA100, Electra Dyne, Stiletto, and so on?

 

[bandit2013]

This is why I've done the Series loop Mod + EQ in loop on all my Series 1 Singles/RoVs ( also F50/F100) plus goose the front with an SD-1. 7 string are just massive with so much cut. Modern or Vintage work great for different flavors. Change between my V30, T75, K85 or EVM 4x12 cabs...even MORE variety. Lots!

This is when playing can last several hours shifting through different amp/cab configurations, EQ, guitars, etc. Fun stuff!



Interesting - didn't know that actually!

Have a question on your Recto's, are you using the Mesa 12AX7 (JJ ECC83s) or do you still have any of the Chinese tubes? Not familiar with the RoV or the F100. What preamp tubes are in them? Also, I believe the RoV was spawn of the Rev F Recto solo head. I only got into the Recto game until 2014 with the Roadster. Not much experience with the early Recto models in relation to ownership. I never really kept up with Mesa between 1989 and 2000, then fell off the fence until 2013 when I got a Mark V90. I do recall playing through a Nomad once or twice, Tried the Stiletto, it was much like the Rectifier line, did not understand how to dial it in so I did not have much interest. Some of that dates back 28 years ago. Don't remember it much. I usually checked out the Mesa gear when getting replacement tubes or guitar strings, if I felt like driving to the next state over that had a Mesa dealer (it was only an hour drive so no big deal).

 

[Neptical]

Have a question on your Recto's, are you using the Mesa 12AX7 (JJ ECC83s) or do you still have any of the Chinese tubes? Not familiar with the RoV or the F100. What preamp tubes are in them? Also, I believe the RoV was spawn of the Rev F Recto solo head. I only got into the Recto game until 2014 with the Roadster. Not much experience with the early Recto models in relation to ownership. I never really kept up with Mesa between 1989 and 2000, then fell off the fence until 2013 when I got a Mark V90. I do recall playing through a Nomad once or twice, Tried the Stiletto, it was much like the Rectifier line, did not understand how to dial it in so I did not have much interest. Some of that dates back 28 years ago. Don't remember it much. I usually checked out the Mesa gear when getting replacement tubes or guitar strings, if I felt like driving to the next state over that had a Mesa dealer (it was only an hour drive so no big deal).

Right now, some are still Mesa 12ax7 but for a little while I was going bonkers with EH & Tung Sol so I forget which is where at the moment. lol
Yeah, the RoV has this real nice darker, smoother, compressed tone going on.
Way different than any of my other Rectos ( Single Series Ones and Dual Rev G ).

I use to want a Roadster, but the RoV filled that void. The dirt channel is pretty much identical to what I heard out of a cranked Roadster. The cleans, not so much - but have the cleans covered in pretty much all my other Mesa's so no big deal.

I'm still game for trying ( and modding the loop ) of a Nomad even though I know they have a bad rep. I had a Stiletto Deuce II but I didn't really get to know it good enough before selling it back off. Wish I never had!

No matter the amp, Mesa gives the absolute best foundation to work with over any other amps.

 

[bandit2013]

Do the preamp tubes look like this? Mesa used these from the late 80's to the end of the 90's. They are the Chinese Military grade 6N4-J Beijing Square Foil Getter tubes, 7025/12AX7. I still have these along with some from Doug's tubes. Mesa on the left, Ruby on the right. Same tubes. Mesa used white ink on the tubes. If they were the SPAX type, they were not printed at all, I had removed the silicon tube on one to see what was in there as it was a noisy tube to start with. These may look like the Chinese silver specials or the Shuguang 12AT7 but those tubes have a round halo getter and are not as good or reliable. They were available as a 12AX7 but inferior to the 6N4-J tube.

or do they look like this instead? This is the current Mesa 12AX7 made by JJ tubes. It is the ECC83s. Not visible due to the getter flash is the round and flat getter plate attached to a wide metal band. Note that there are no clips on the plates like the Chines versions above. They also lack the triple mica spacers.

 

[bandit2013]

An update for those following. The old Mesa tubes work great in the Roadster but did not work out in the MWDR. Those Mesa 6N4-J Chinese tubes from the 90's made the MWDR sound bright, brittle and boxy and it lost its depth of character. I did not get that result in the Roadster, probably because it is a much darker toned amp. That became more aggressive and tight. Such is life. Not sure if this holds true or not, seems like amps made after 2016 seem to favor the Mesa branded JJ tubes for some reason. MWDR was made in 2018. I sort of recall trying this before but not sure if I remember what other tubes I have tried. Roadster was made in 2013/2014-ish. It is obvious they are not the same design just based on overall sound with the stock Mesa tubes and what color code works best with either is not the same.

I would have to go through my posts on the BAD if I tried those older Mesa preamp tubes. I believe I did. Also tried them in one of the Mark VII with good results. They did not work well in the JP2C though.

 

[Neptical]

Do the preamp tubes look like this? Mesa used these from the late 80's to the end of the 90's. They are the Chinese Military grade 6N4-J Beijing Square Foil Getter tubes, 7025/12AX7. I still have these along with some from Doug's tubes. Mesa on the left, Ruby on the right. Same tubes. Mesa used white ink on the tubes. If they were the SPAX type, they were not printed at all, I had removed the silicon tube on one to see what was in there as it was a noisy tube to start with. These may look like the Chinese silver specials or the Shuguang 12AT7 but those tubes have a round halo getter and are not as good or reliable. They were available as a 12AX7 but inferior to the 6N4-J tube.

View attachment 5258

or do they look like this instead? This is the current Mesa 12AX7 made by JJ tubes. It is the ECC83s. Not visible due to the getter flash is the round and flat getter plate attached to a wide metal band. Note that there are no clips on the plates like the Chines versions above. They also lack the triple mica spacers.

View attachment 5259

Mostly the Mesa Engineering labelled 12AX7s. But now, you have me thinking about some of amps I haven't actually been through in a long time! With that said, the majority of all tubes were JJ, SED, Sovtek, EH and Tung Sol. All really great IME.

 

[rarebitusa]

I had a Stiletto Deuce II but I didn't really get to know it good enough before selling it back off. Wish I never had!

I luv my Stiletto Ace... It's raw and untamed, has to be cranked but once it get's pushed it comes alive. The resonance mod, matched with the right speaker seals the deal, at least for me.

 

[Neptical]

I luv my Stiletto Ace... It's raw and untamed, has to be cranked but once it get's pushed it comes alive. The resonance mod, matched with the right speaker seals the deal, at least for me.

Yeaaah - I bet that Ace sounds awesome! I really got to be a huge fan of all the Mesa 50w amps so I'm sure that amp would be fun to play! I can't remember, is that a Series loop?

Reminder: this is why I need a Badlander 50 at some point.

 

[rarebitusa]

I can't remember, is that a Series loop?

yep

 

[Neptical]

yep

Perfect.
For the way I set up EQ & modulation, Series loops are now necessity. Lots of moving parts aside from the amp.