AlNiCo Speakers? WGS or Jensen, other suggestions?

[bandit2013]

I may have been playing guitar since I was 13 years of age, too bad after 34 years I have not become a master.
Over that time period, I have only had used speakers that were made with ceramic magnets. I do like my EVM12L speakers in the 412 cab. However, since I will be getting a Mesa RA100 in the near future, I just do not want to go through the extra expense of buying Mesa cab and replace the V30. It would be more cost effective to have a slant 412 cab made (marshall clone made by Mather Amp Cabinets) and install my own speakers of choice.

I have been considering more of a vintage tone of AlNiCo type. Two speaker I have in mind, Jensen JET JP12-100BB (black bird) or the WGS BlackHawk HP 100 which is similar (may even be a clone). They both seem to sound similar and cost the same. I did look into Webber and Sumback Scumnico speaker. not sure about them either.

Any opinions?

 

[Don]

I've been using a Weber 12A125 in a Fender tweed Deluxe (5E3) clone for the past 6 or 7 years. It sounds great- like a well broken in old speaker. I tried a 1958 Jensen P12R in the same amp but it couldn't handle the amp's power (about 14 watts). It low volumes it was very sweet but was a mess when cranked.

I just put a Voice of Rock P8R clone in my Fender tweed Champ (5F1) clone and really like it. It sounds like a cool old speaker. This amp is really compressed and squishy sounding. The speaker makes it more so. They make a 10" and 12" version as well.

 

[bandit2013]

I did look into the Weber speakers. They have Fane clones and a few others.
I have found a few videos of the BlackHawk HP but only heard them with more clean tones and not heavily distorted. As for the Jensen BlackBird , there is a guitar world review that puts it though many levels saturation. I believe the Black Hawk is a reverse engineered Jensen.

My goal is to complete a 412 cab for use with the RA100. Ceramics can be somewhat harsh, Neo is even worse. I have notices that some Weber models with alnico also have hybrid magnetics, either boosted with ceramic or neo. 6 or 7 years is a good test of time. The two EV12L speakers that I had for my Mark III, had it for nearly 26 years and never had an issue with either speaker. As for the MC90, I think it crapped out, sounds like it did anyway. Same applies to the V30s. Early breakup does not sound good to me at all, sounds more like a blown speaker coil.

 

[jnoel64]

I am a big fan of WGS speakers. The BlackHawk is more a clone of Celestion Gold speakers. It's suggested use is for a Vox AC 30. The BlackHawk HP is more of a clone of EV SRO. It's supposed to have more warmth and bottom end. I had a Celestion Gold in a Marshall combo and yanked it. I couldn't stand the thin tone. Your ears and mileage way vary. :wink:

 

[bandit2013]

I will be getting the Mesa RA100 head soon. At least I will have a chance to test it out with my 412 EVM12L cab. I preferred those speakers over the V30 with the Mark V. Recently I have been experimenting with my Mark IV combo. I put a Fane studio into the combo, and wound up with an Emi Tonkerlite in the extension cab. The Fane would probably have the closest tone to Black Hawk or Black Bird even though it has a ceramic magnet. Just for kicks, I removed both speakers two days ago and installed the MC90 into the combo and one of the V30s into the sealed extension cab. It sounds good. MC90 and V30 makes for a good speaker marriage. Not bad at all with the master volume below 2. Sounds like crap when you set master above 2. I did not notice much breakup at all but the tone is just too sharp or brittle. The Fane by itself sounded better than the MC90 and V30 combined. Not sure what my long term plans are for the Mark IV combo. It makes for a great practice amp at low volume. Sounds awesome through the 412 cab. The Mark IV would make a better head than a combo.

I am looking for that Vintage tone, liquid highs, edgy mids and moderate lows. The BlackBird sounded great in the Review by guitarworld. Comparative reviews on the Alnico speakers favored the Black Hawk Hp100 over the Black Bird for high gain distorted sounds, but preferred Black bird for cleans however it was rated similar to Black Hawk. Problem with reviews, they do not indicate how long speakers were broken in before evaluating them.

 

[kdorsey]

I'm a huge WGS fan. Best bang-for-the-buck out there with great sounding options. When I snapped and went on a 'Boogie tone overhaul' binge, I first replaced the EV12L with an ET65 after a lot of research. Though I wasn't immediately convinced that it would sound fantastic throughout my volume ranges (we play some really small clubs and sizable outdoor venues), our other guitarist WAS. He rants and raves over my tone thru that speaker. So I loaded one of my old Boogie 2x12s with ET65 + Veteran 30, both closed back. Pretty awesome. They broke in pretty quickly (about 3 weeks of gigging) and have been very reliable. This is all very subjective, but WGS is reasonably priced and high quality stuff. Big thumbs-up.

 

[bandit2013]

I may just get one of the WGS Black Hawk HP 100's for a trial run in the Mark IV combo. Ever since I got the Mark V, I have been on a tone quest to revamp the Mark IV. I did have a FANE Studio AXA 12L speaker in the combo for a while. That is one speaker that needs to be driven hard, it excels at high output volume, and thins out at bedroom level. That tends to be hard on tubes and I do not always play through the amp at full throttle. I have read many reviews on both the Jensen Black Bird and the WGS Black Hawk HP. There is one review that rates the WGS over the Jensen when it comes to moderate to heavy distortion, the Jensen was favored over the WGS for the clean and lower volumes. Both were rated as top shelf speakers. I will have to keep digging for more, look for more links for the WGS at overdriven metal tones. At the moment, it will be a coin toss. I may go for the Jensen (they claim they sound really good for metal after they break in). I may just have to boil down to what will fit in the Mark IV combo. I did hear the Jensen through some Vintage style tones in video form. It is a close call between the two.

 

[bandit2013]

I may just start with one and install it in the Mark IV. I made a solids model of the Fane Studio speaker and superimposed the WGS Black Hawk profile. It appears that there will only be 7/16 of an inch between the outer tube and the bell cover. I will have to check and see if the back panel would still fit in case I really want to keep the Black Hawk in the Mark IV combo. I have the Fane Studio in there now. If it does not fit, I have an extension cab to use which is probably the best option considering I want to build a 412 closed back cab. The cost of the WGS Black Hawk HP is lower in cost than the EVM12L. I would not mind having two 412 but with different speakers. Then again I would not mind having a full stack of EV's, but one half stack is enough.

 

[Jackie]

Albeit expensive, the Celestion Alnico Gold seem like a great speaker. I don't own it myself and I haven't tried it yet, but on another forum one user tried a bunch of different Celestions and combinations, and he arrived at the Alnico Gold at last. Several followed and all were happy campers.

 

[bandit2013]

If I keep the alnico speaker in the Mark IV, it should be rated 90W or more.

I appreciate the suggestion.

 

[bandit2013]

I have been considering just getting the EVM12L black label and build up a 412 with those. Seems like they are becoming harder to find at a reasonable price. Since I already went down that road to revamp my Rectifier 412 cab, I am willing to try something different. I can say that after the EVM12L Black Labels have broken in, they really sound Awesome with the Mark V, sounds just as good with the Mark IV channeled into it. I just have not been able to make them sound terrible. I can't say that about the V30 or MC90, Fane Studio, Eminence TonkerLite. Each of these speakers are not bad but they sound much better when paired with something else. The Fane is a good speaker but lacks midrange, It has become a bit loose in the combo. It does open up and reveal more tone when you really drive it, just like the EV, but the EV sounds just as good at lower volumes and does not loose its character. The V30, MC90 and Emi Tonker have one thing in common, flub. There are certain frequencies or notes when played on the E or A string will bring out the honky or horn like sound (not sure if it a harmonic of the resonant frequency, call it the brown note since it really sounds like ***t. ) oops, becoming wordy. ...

I ordered the WGS Black Hawk HP 100 to give it a shot. If it sound good I will keep it in the Mark IV and get 4 more for my 412 project.

 

[bandit2013]

The WGS Black Hawk HP 100 arrived a few days ago. It fits very well in the Mark IV combo. The Bell has a contour that narrows towards the end of the cap which provides plenty of room to remove and install power tubes. I was concerned about the bell shape before the speaker arrived due to its length I was uncertain if there was going to be available clearance for tube maintenance. As for the sound out of the box, Very nice. It surpasses that of the Fane speaker in the clean channel, as for lead, very creamy tone and not harsh. The speaker needs to be broken-in to improve bass response, not as tight as an EV but sounds very similar to my 412 cab with seasoned EV's. Not quite as bold in the low end but for an open back combo, you do not necessarily need to have a dominant bass as this tends to drown out some tone at lower volumes.

I was able to connect the Mark V to the speaker ( I made a long enough speaker lead to allow for this if a head is placed on top of the Mark IV cabinet.) I will hold off on getting what I need for the 412 cab project that I am planning for an RA100 head. I may just get EV's again since they sound awesome in a sealed back 412. As for the Black Hawk HP, it sounds incredible. I have a bit more definition in the lead channel due to the high frequency roll off which is a huge plus for the Mark IV. For a single speaker in a combo with no other cabinets providing sound from the amp, the WGS Black Hawk performs well. So far it is the best speaker I have yet to experience in the Mark IV combo. Once I break it in I will be able to drive it much harder. Speaker is still too stiff at the moment to push the envelope without overburdening the voice coil. It has gotten a bit on the warm side temperature wise during the first two hours of continual use. After that it has not changed in temperature and remains cool after a few hours of use. The link below has pictures and more detail. Hopefully it works. Why post this in Carvins BBS? I may not have a Carvin amp, but I do have 5 Carvin guitars. If the speaker holds up, this would be a really good option for a Mark V combo or any combo amp as long as it fits the available space. For those that have less than 50W output, the Black Hawk is also available in a 50W version but has a smaller diameter voice coil. Both use a Kapton former for the voice coil so it should not burn up or catch fire like a paper former would which is more common with AlNiCo speakers typically in the 15W-30W variety. It was a toss up between the WGS Black Hawk or the Jensen Black Bird.

http://carvinbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=39596&highlight=

 

[bandit2013]

It has been a month since I installed the WGS Black Hawk HP100 in the Mark IV. This speaker would sound perfect in a Mark V combo. The Mark IV combo I have is not as satisfying as the Mark V head. Something is just not right with the Mark IV. May have something to do with it falling over and punching in the speaker jack through the chassis while I was playing through it at the same time. (Do not move the amp while it is operating, the casters are not very stable on carpet). I was able to repair the physical damage and straighten up the wire tree on the power section that got pushed over when the speaker plug broke the jack. (the original 90 degree plug shorted out long ago so I had a straight plug in its place. I changed that too after the incident. This all happened while I had a Fane Studio speaker installed and I was trying to find out where the rattle was coming from ( amp or the metal ducts under the floor).

The WGS Black Hawk is definitely a step up from the MC90 in tone. After a month of break-in, the highs and lows are more pronounced. Definitely a great AC/DC or Lead Zep tone. I fabricated a large plate that will provide clearance for the handle on top of the MKIV so I can place the MK V on top without fear of it falling. I did this so I can hear the difference between the two amps. If I had a Mark V combo this would be an option as a speaker replacement. Why just an option? The Mark IV is only 85W and it seems to overpower the speaker to the point the voice coil begins to smell hot. I believe the enamel is getting burned off of the windings. The next step would be to try the Jensen Black Bird since it has similar power rating @100WRMS, with a 200W music program rating. WGS does not have other rating but the 100WRMS which I think is over rated (I believe it more to be a 75WRMS speaker than a 100WRMS). Then again, the Mark IV may be under rated, perhaps there is more power at the lower frequencies that the WGS speaker can handle. I would rather pay the extra $20.00 for more power.

The WGS speaker provided plenty of room to change all tubes in the rear mounted configuration. Since I am uncertain what speaker will finally end up in the Mark IV, I modified the baffle hole so I can front mount the speaker. With the Fane speaker mounted, that gave me 1/2" clearance for the power tubes. That was definitely needed. The Fane speaker so far sounds the best at volume settings of 3 or higher. So if the WGS burns out before I get another speaker to try, at least the Fane will fit. Another note: the grill needs to be offset by about 1/4". I also changed how the grill is attached, now screwed in from front. I really love the tone and character of the WGS speaker especially when driven by the Mark V. That by itself sounds way better than the 412 with EVM12L at medium volume settings. I did try to mount the WGS speaker in a sealed 1x12 cab, it just did not sound good. I believe the resonant frequency of the cab is not suitable for guitar frequencies, it sounded worse with the back off. The WGS speaker is at its best in open back, Combo amp. Perhaps if you have a 1x12 combo, if it is under 60W this speaker would be perfect. Would also kick -*** in a 2x12 at 100W. Since the WGS Black Hawk HP is a reverse engineered version of the Jensen Black Bird, I will have to give the Black Bird some consideration since it may be able to handle more power.

On a side note: The WGS Black Hawk may be similar to V30 and or the MC90 in that it has a cloth dust cap. However, the voice coil is larger (2") and does not seem to have the HF beaming effect prone with the V30. Perhaps it is due to cone shape, seems to be more shallow than the V30, similar to the MC90. Cone shape is closer to an EV. The FANE has the shallowest cone, that speaker really projects (when you are close to the amp it does not sound as loud, move back a few feet and BAM there it is.

 

[bandit2013]

The verdict on the WGS Black Hawk HP 100. During the break in, speaker sounded really good. Nice tone in all modes. It did overheat once and that was enough to convince me that the voice coil may not be capable handling rated power. This was accomplished with the Mark IV b which I believe is 85W RMS. Speaker still works well after that event. The more I used it the brighter it got. I have also re-tubed the preamp a few times which may have contributed to some of the tone change. Considering the cost of ownership, I would rather spend the money on EVM12L Classic or Black Label or FANE Studio. Those take the abuse of high gain at high volume without overheating, then again they are rated at 200W or more.

I gave the ALNICO speaker a chance. I will keep the Black Hawk and find a use for it somewhere. That would be an ideal speaker for a 50W combo. I am considering getting a TA-30 1x12 someday and the Black Hawk would be a great option as long as it fits the enclosure. I was considering the Carvin V3MC but there seems to be issues with the solid state reverb and motorboat sounds. I prefer old school spring reverb over the solid state versions since they lack the digital artifacts in the sound. I will have to weigh the WGS Black Hawk and compare it to the weight of MC90 and V30. I believe the WGS weighs a bit less. Curious about the Filmore speaker, wonder how it compares. I have heard some recordings, still not the same as live experience.