A "classic" Dual Rectifier owner searching for some answers.

[Dual1999]

A newbie here and a not so good player, that has a frozen project. I halted building my rig "project" quite long ago.

I have a Gibson FlyingV from 1984 and an Ibanez UV777P from 1998.
Still have my first and almost 20 years old Peavey 65W solid state combo too (the old ones had a nice sound, believe me).

In 1999 I buyed a classical Dual Rectifier Solo Head. The classic "orange" and "vintage" one. Pretty amp. The amp of my dreams back then. I used to try lots of Marshalls (praised and very available in Portugal) and "Jesus, what a crappy sound, so crappy that it hurts" I thought, and so I heard a lot of the mythic Mesa Boogies and I did read everywhere that they slapped Marshall in the face, one handed.

Pretty a sin that I haven't used the amp that much, because I changed my plans a bit. The amp must have no more than 100 hours of playing to be honest. Nor I even got a decent cabinet for it after all these years. Choices were made at the time and I expected I'd be having money for the 4x12", but the time never came. Life changes, projects change and also I was afraid of wasting more money.

I think I made a mistake back there, because neither I have a proper cabinet to crank it up nor place to crank it up. So... it sounds crappy at low volumes, not crappy like Marshall, but at "home" volumes I can't get it saturated like my damn cheap old solid state Peavey, no matter if Gain is all up. Quite disturbing. Quite the wrong amp in the wrong hands, I think. Then came the day I had a chance to test an Engl Savage 120 with its cabinet, and even at low volumes it sounded so so so much better than my DR. I felt a punch in the stomach... "no way!..." I thought. What happens here?? I'm even more afraid of buying the Mesa 4x12" and have a disillusion. And I have no place where to test it first, nor money to blindly waste in something so good but that may render full circle disillusion.

I also don't understand all those terms "tight", "scoop", "low-end", "better head-room", "punch", "rounded", "crunchy", "fat sound", "voicing"... I read them everywhere, and I don't know what people mean with all those words!!! And howcome people learn what they mean only by reading?

My Dual Rectifier at low volumes with my 1x12" crappy cabinet sounds crappy, harsh, square, hurting, like an electric purr or a klaxon. And the more I dig and turn the knobs and try orange to red or red to orange, everything, the worse it sounds. The only thing that differs from crappy Marshall is the boomy bass which Marshall lacks. Instead of an irritating electric snort, I have a boomy irritating electric purr. Besides, Portugal has a small market. Marshalls dominate here and I can't get a place to test Mesa Boogie cabinets, I had to buy my DR abroad at the time. Blindly.

Let me post an example of the sound I look for, and I would be grateful if anyone could tell me if I can ever get it with my Dual Rectifier if I get a proper cabinet and equalize it well.

I call the sound I want "gooey", "sticky", "richly dense", "saturated sound", where extreme gain meets extreme smoothness. Probably you won't like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3K-RBsvu00

Rhythm guitar, first 30 seconds. I want that sound. Many of you will probably think that's a waste of an amp in such a lousy sound, but can I pull that guitar sound out of my Mesa Boogie?

Best regards!

 

[clutch71]

Boy, where to begin. So you've had the amp since 99. You've got approx 100 hours of playing time. You use it through a 1x12 speaker. You do not have a 4x12 for it and wonder if it's worth the investment. Your looking for bedroom volume. You prefer your solid state tone. You don't like Marshalls.

If you haven't done so, you may want to read the manual cover to cover. If you don't have one you can download it from Mesas web site. Rectifiers take some time and tweaking to get used to. Bypass the loop, bold, silicone diode, red to modern, set the eq and gain at 12 o'clock. Bring the master and volume to about 10 o'clock.

A 2x12 rectifier or 4x12 rectifier cab with the settings above will have every bit of punch and clarity you mentioned with the ENGL. Note that you mentioned "with it's cab." A 1x12 speaker is just not going to move that much air. The bass response will be less as there is less room inside the cab. I've always prefered at least two speakers running at all times. Speaker cone movement and the amount of air your pushing are an important aspect of saturated tones. You should also make sure the 1x12 ohmage is a safe match.

It sounds like you are looking for a tube amp with great tone. Cabinent and speaker selection, based on your preference is an important aspect of the tone chain. You have to find the combination you like. I pair a Marshall head with a 2x12 rectifier cab for around the house, and 4x12 rectifier cab at my rehersal space where I can really crank the amplifier. If you play out or have a place to play the DR outside of the house where you can crank it, a 4x12 (or 2x12 for portability) is going to be worth the investment.

Tube amplifiers saturate differently from solid state. Most of the distortion comes from the preamp section, but the sweet spot usually involves the power tubes being overdriven as well. solid state uses diode clipping to distort it will sound "better" at lower volumes but most find in general that the tone is lacking. A 100w Dual Rectifier (some distort better than others at low volume by the way, it's a crap shoot really) take some volume to get the power tubes to break. The general rule of thumb is the lower the wattage the faster the amp reached power tube saturation. You can cut a Dual Rec to 50 w by removing two power tubes and a rectifier tube. But, this in and of itself may not make it a bedroom amp. It's still going to need some volume to saturate. You could always use the solid state amp for practice and the DR when you have an opportunity to crank it.

The clip you posted by Slayer, they use Marshalls. Originally they were 100w JCM 800's modded to accept KT-88's, to be exact; boosted out front and noise gate running at all times. I think he used the standard cabs loaded with G12-75T speaker. They are not going to be the best bedroom amps either. You can get a tighter tone with a rectifier by running EL34's and boosting the front with a good OD set as a clean boost. IE take a tube screamer dial out the gain on the pedal, crank the level and set the tone around 12 o'clock. Will it sound like the Slayer clip, not exactly, but it will be as close as it can get.

 

[Dual1999]

Thank you very much for the time you spent replying, Clutch. Probably most of people will look at this thread and laugh at my huge thread of noob questions.
Yup, you spotted all the problems pretty well. I always played solid state amps at bedroom volume. Ok, say a little neighbour-disturbing volume, and rarely in a reharsal room.

I started some music projects 10/12 years ago, and yes, when I cranked the solidstate in rehearsal rooms it no longer sounded good. So I needed something big. I had some limited money at the time and I thought "I can get the cabinet later, so if I can't like Marshall and Mesa Boogie is said to be The Thing, I'll import one DR. A shot in the dark". The rest you already know.

I'll take some time trying to following your advices (I move well in electronics, understood all the tubes and "modding" parts) but allow me to ask you to explain better what do you mean by:

a good OD set as a clean boost. IE take a tube screamer dial out the gain on the pedal, crank the level and set the tone around 12 o'clock

Do you mean using a tube screamer pedal? directly to the input or through the Send-Return?

Also, as I said I'm not very good at music jargon. Maybe I should buy some guitar magazines. But I need some crash course in English music terminology. What means a sound to be "tight", have "punch", "rounded", "scooped", to be "fat"?

If you find it's not very easy to explain, link me to some thread or site where someone (with big patience) explains with samples or something. But you may give it at try, a 101 basics about all those terms and how to interpret them quickly, if you have some 15 minutes.

Best regards and again thank you so much!

 

[clutch71]

...Also, as I said I'm not very good at music jargon. Maybe I should buy some guitar magazines. But I need some crash course in English music terminology. What means a sound to be "tight", have "punch", "rounded", "scooped", to be "fat"?

If you find it's not very easy to explain, link me to some thread or site where someone (with big patience) explains with samples or something. But you may give it at try, a 101 basics about all those terms and how to interpret them quickly, if you have some 15 minutes.

Best regards and again thank you so much!

Yes, the OD goes into the input section. OD's don't really belong in the loop. Everyone has their preference of OD's. Me personally I use an Ibanez TS 808 RI, or TS-9. The Maxon 808, BB Preamp, OCD, and Zakk Wylde are very popular around here.

Tight - Metallica's Master of Puppets. Each note can be heard with clearly and distinctly. Mesa Boogie Mark IIC+

Punch, Rounded and Fat - That's a tough one but usually each is referring to the bass response. The sound is very percusive. Dream Theatres the Dark Eternal Night. However this particular example is also tight.

scooped - lacking mids. By nature the dual rec is mid scooped, meaning that it has naturally less mids than say a Stiletto, Mark IV, or Marshall. This doesn't mean that you have to set the amp for that tone. The best example would be to use your solid state amp set everything at noon and turn down the mids. OK for around the house, but you'll get lost in a band mix. Slayer's Angel of Death Marshall JCM 800 w/ KT-88's.

I found a web site that described all terms like you mentioned but can't think of it.

This should keep you busy for a while though..
http://www.amptone.com/

 

[ibanez4life SZ!]

A proper cabinet will bring more out of your DR...there is no doubt about that.

BUT, is a big goal for you is to achieve a better low volume tone with a tube amp, I don't think the Dual Rectifier is the right amp for that.

I've owned 3 rectifiers though my times with Mesa. My current amp is a Dual Rectifier Roadster. NOT ONE of these amps did I ever bother bringing back from the practice space, because honestly, I think they sound horrible when turned down low. BUT, when they're at the practice space or at a show, at stage volume, I have found no better tone.

ENGLs saturate MUCH faster in the preamp then Mesa. They also have a tighter EQ curve....with this, the sound much better at lower volumes. BUT, for this, I believe they start to sound thin and raspy in a band mix. When turned up, IMO, a Mesa will found MUCH fatter than en ENGL.

There is always a trade off. You just need to decide which is more important to you.

On a final note, I ALWAYS run my rectifiers with a Maxon OD808 boosting the front feed. Without it, I don't believe the amp saturates enough, and it's too dark for my tastes.

Best of luck, and let us know how it goes!

Eric

 

[Dual1999]

Wow! Thank you all very much for the good advices.

Just read about the Maxon OD808. It has good reputation indeed, better than "pumping up" pickups right?

Once I considered putting a JFET activator kit in the Ibanez's Dimarzio Evolution 7's (like this one: http://www.guitar-repairs.co.uk/jfet_guitar_preamp.htm) but since there is no good room in the guitar for it, everytime battery would be needing replacement there I'd be in an odissey of removing all strings and unscrewing the pickguard to access it. Not nice. And maybe not even the same effect as an EMG-81-7.


About my DR, guess it's worth keeping it then and wait for a better moment to buy a good cabinet and have a place to play it decently, though the cabinets have almost doubled their price in a decade: €2000 now (about 2650 dollars) -> too expensive even being Mesa Boogie material. When I decide about that I'll have to go for a loan (as I did for the amp). 10 years ago the very same Mesa Boogie Recto 4x12 Standard (Diamond Plate) would cost exactly half! For the moment I'll stick around with the old solid-state Peavey for home playing and tell the DR "he" is not going to be sold and his "bride" will come in sooner or later. I could have bought the Tremo-o-Verb Rectifiier combo back then for 400 dollars more. Not the same thing as a separate cabinet, but was indeed a nice deal since besides being a true Dual Rectifier married with 2 decent Celestion speakers, it had an extra 12AX7 tube for nice tremolo and reverb embedded effects.

Speaking of Celestion, has anyone tried a cabinet with Neodymium speakers? Celestion made a lot of hype saying that it was a new step in speakers technology and that finally musicians could enjoy the sound of Alnico with extreme gains without demagnetizing when pushed to extreme gain. But the hype faded quickly. Only Eminence seems to keep producing Nd magnet speakers for guitar. There is some Randall 4x12 with them out there. What happened? bad sound?

Again thank you very much to both! Priceless insights, pro indeed.

PS: Just listened to Endless Endeavor. Very good!! And what an awesome guitar sound, indeed pretty much the sound I look for: "gooey" as I call it, dense and super-saturated, but smooth and pleasant, with every note beckoning a next note.