Running the Mesa Dual Recto on 50 watts of power

[bermuda_]

Hey guys.

After reading a lot of topic on the net about running the Recto on 50 watts of powers, I was just wondering by reducing the power wattage on my Recto from 100 watts to 50 watts, will the amp break up quicker, at lower volume levels.

 

[Heritage Softail]

Less headroom and you can crank gain and master way up and keep the output lower, at a lower volume. Lower volume is a relative term. I have a single rec series 2, 50 watt model. I like that about the amp. But even with that said, it just sounds better kinda loud. Maybe it is just me, I like to feel some of the percussive side of the music. Your mileage may vary.

 

[b0nkersx]

Hey guys.

After reading a lot of topic on the net about running the Recto on 50 watts of powers, I was just wondering by reducing the power wattage on my Recto from 100 watts to 50 watts, will the amp break up quicker, at lower volume levels.

It'll still be deafeningly loud before it breaks up.

 

[YellowJacket]

You get breakup a bit sooner at 50watts. Rectocab 4x12s have notoriously stiff speakers in them (v30s) and half of a good tone is the speakers growling. Either get a 2 x 12 or maybe the marshall 1960ax cab which has the 25watt greenbacks in it. With that Marshall cab, the Dual will sound better at much lower volumes. If it still is a problem, get two Yellow Jackets and run the amp with two EL84s and the Marshall 1960ax cab and I guarantee you'll be able to get a good sound at a somewhat reasonable level. With this setup, you'll be running a less efficient speaker with a 15 - 20 watt setup so it will probably sound about half as loud as the Dual running with the Rectocab at 100 watts. Just be warned, the tonal characteristics will be altered. It isn't good or bad, just different.

 

[Heritage Softail]

YellowJacket,

I am not super versed on speakers but getting there. .. I run my SRec thru two Celestion 12" C12GT 75 I think is the catalog number, maybe some of the characters are in the wrong location but those are the alpha/num characters. Sounds a little more crisp than the Mesa cab. The greenback 25s will be different in what way than those? On the wattage, if I ran two 25 watt speakers out of a 50 watt amp, how would that affect them? I NEVER turn the rec up to even half way on the output. It is way loud. Even using the single 12" speaker in my Blues Deluxe. I am not familar with YJ speakers. What is the basic character setup with those?

 

[YellowJacket]

THD Yellow Jackets are tube converters that you plug into your amp which then allows you to plug in EL84 tubes. Apparently, there is a resistor in the circuit that adjusts the plate voltage or something or other so that the little tubes don't get burnt out by the big bad amp.
http://www.thdelectronics.com/product_page_yellowjacket.html

My only caveat with these is that they don't work well at all with a 240 or 300 watt cab. 15 - 20 watts simply isn't enough to power four speakers with that much handling power. My own experience was that they sound fantastic when running through a Marshall 1960ax cab with the Greenbacks. The best thing with this sort of a mod is that it is very easy to reverse so if you ever require 100watts of power through a halfstack, you have that available as an option. The only thing easier is the power switch on a Mark V head.

You have Celestion G12T - 75s? Yes, they would sound more 'defined' than V30s. They also sound less constipated, scratchy, scooped, or even gritty. Depends who you talk to. I would say V30s ROAR when they are turned up but they can also be midrangey, or buzzy if they don't get enough juice. They are a creamy speaker.

Greenbacks are also creamy but the low end is phatter and tends to fart out with too much power going through them. Obviously not a problem with a 15 - 20watt power signal. They aren't as scratchy or gritty as a G12T 75 and they break up easily so they sound good at low volumes.

 

[mikey383]

Man, if you're still trying to push more gain through this thing, either sell it, boost it, or have it modded. You're not going to get massive amounts of gain by getting the power tubes to break up. You're going to end up with a mushy tone that you're still going to be unhappy with.

Rectos work off preamp gain, and like a clean power section to keep it tight. Once you get into power amp distortion, things start to loosen up because the gain structure is totally different.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Running the amp at 50W will make about the same difference to the breakup point as moving the Output Level knob from 3 o'clock to 2 o'clock. No more than that. It will certainly not give you more breakup at lower volume, it won't make the amp more than very slightly quieter when it's full up, and it won't actually increase the gain at all. All it does is to reduce the headroom by 3dB. (And to slightly tighten the dynamic response, because the power supply isn't working as hard.)

If you're still looking for more gain at lower volume, either turn the gain control up (assuming it isn't dimed already), or use your pedal. You can use the pedal to add a *lot* more gain and earlier breakup than anything to do with the power stage will.

You can certainly try it though, it's very easy and doesn't cost anything. Remove two power tubes (inner or outer pair), one rectifier tube (doesn't matter which), and connect the speaker to the jack for *half* its impedance (eg 4 ohms for an 8-ohm cab).

 

[bermuda_]

Right I see what you mean, but by reducing the power of the Recto down to 50 watts, will it help tighten the overall sound of the amp up, I'e will my palm mutes sound tighter?

 

[YellowJacket]

bermuda, is it fair to say that all your posts are really screaming "I WANT A MESA MARK SERIES AMP, PREFERABLY A MARK IV OR V"?

I just don't think you are digging the Dual, my man. Of course, you can tighten it up in many ways, like running it though a mills cab, for instance. You can also think about getting a different guitar. Still, you aren't at that 'the tone is almost perfect except for . . .' stage. It sounds like you are trying to like something because you think you should but deep down, you are unhappy.

My suggestion: GO TRY MORE AMPS!!!!!!! TRY MANY MORE AMPS, EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU WON'T LIKE THEM!
Also, consider all the bands who have a tone you like. You can then research what gear they are playing to get an idea of how the equipment affects tone.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Running it at 50W won't make it significantly tighter at the volumes I think you're trying to play it at. But why not try it, and find out? It will take no more than five minutes. It might make a tone difference you like anyway, and if it doesn't, just put the tubes back in.

I don't quite agree with the folks who think you need a different amp... or not yet anyway. I think you just need to learn how to get what you want out of this one. I don't know exactly what tones you're going for, but the Dual Rectifier is an extremely versatile and capable amp, especially if you've got a good overdrive pedal as well. I could use one for *any* style of music. In fact I do, although mine does have tremolo and reverb too . OK, I don't play metal... but I do mess about with metal sounds at home sometimes, and it has plenty enough gain at low volume. I can also dime the gain knob and it sounds great, although not with quite the same EQ as it does when it's lower down.

Turning the gain up, using the EQ and/or using the pedal you have will do the majority of what you're asking for from the amp - more gain, tighter bass, lower volume breakup - and I find it very strange that you're still trying to tinker with the amp in ways that at best won't make anywhere near as large a step in the right direction instead of just using your ears.

 

[b0nkersx]

bermuda, is it fair to say that all your posts are really screaming "I WANT A MESA MARK SERIES AMP, PREFERABLY A MARK IV OR V"?

I just don't think you are digging the Dual, my man. Of course, you can tighten it up in many ways, like running it though a mills cab, for instance. You can also think about getting a different guitar. Still, you aren't at that 'the tone is almost perfect except for . . .' stage. It sounds like you are trying to like something because you think you should but deep down, you are unhappy.

My suggestion: GO TRY MORE AMPS!!!!!!! TRY MANY MORE AMPS, EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU WON'T LIKE THEM!
Also, consider all the bands who have a tone you like. You can then research what gear they are playing to get an idea of how the equipment affects tone.

+1. I really think a 5150/6505 or an ENGL Powerball would be the right amp for him.

 

[Heritage Softail]

Just got back from Atlanta Guitar Center. They had a Diezel Herbert there used. 180watts and a fat stack of $, out of my price range, but I had to play it to see what all the fuss is about. It is modern high gain, tight, metal hed, and all of those other vague but cool descriptors.

Bermuda, have to tried a Herbert? Could be the amp for you. If not, it is a fun test drive.

 

[Elpelotero]

50w will make it looser, NOT tighter. The more watts, the tighter it is.

 

[94Tremoverb]

No, that's wrong. Running a 100W amp at 50W makes it tighter, because the power supply will be working much less hard when the amp is putting out maximum power, hence there will be less sag.

If you don't think it's true, try it.

A *100W amp* is tighter at the same volume than a *50W amp* (by turning down the volume control), because its power supply is then working half as hard in relation to its full capability, but that isn't the same thing as running a 100W amp as a 50W amp by pulling two tubes.

 

[mikey383]

No, that's wrong. Running a 100W amp at 50W makes it tighter, because the power supply will be working much less hard when the amp is putting out maximum power, hence there will be less sag.

If you don't think it's true, try it.

A *100W amp* is tighter at the same volume than a *50W amp* (by turning down the volume control), because its power supply is then working half as hard in relation to its full capability, but that isn't the same thing as running a 100W amp as a 50W amp by pulling two tubes.

I've found that running at 50 watts is a looser feel to the amp because you're pushing the power tubes farther than you would if you have all 4 in place, which will make the tone looser. The bias goes up when running 2 power tubes, so they are closer to max dissipation. True, the power supply will work half as hard, but it's rated to supply the needed current up to a certain point. The power tubes on the other hand, will reach their max limit before the power supply will. So you end up with a looser tone because of the power tubes.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Interesting... all the amps I've tried it with sound tighter run at half power.

Do you reset the impedance to half the value of the speakers? If you don't, the amp is then effectively working into half the correct matching impedance, which will produce a more saggy, squashy feel for sure.

 

[mikey383]

Yeah, I plug it into the 4 ohm out. (8 ohm cab)