Retubed w/ Mesa Tubes & Unhappy

[joseph_68]

Yesterday I retubed my Nomad55 with all Mesa tubes. Before the change, it had a pair JJ 6L6 power tubes and the Groove Tube 12AX7-C (Chinese) in V1, V2, V3 - and finally two Ruby 12AX7's in V4 & V5 (for the effects loop and PI).

RESULTS:

The cleans are fine, and the volume much better (new power tubes). BUT, the drive and gain on channel 2 & 3 does not sound as well-defined OR harmonically rich after the change. I suspect that the Chinese GT 12AX7's in V1, V2 & V3 were primarily responsible for these tonal differences?

Anyone agree/disagree??? Should I put the GT's back in V1, V2 & V3???

 

[MusicManJP6]

won't take but a minute to put the C's back in and see if they make a difference! I'd just do that and see what you get...

 

[stokes]

Preamp tubes last a long time and dont need to be changed as often as the power tubes.Like musicman said try putting the old preamp tubes back in.If it sounds better or good to you then you are okay.To me all the tubes you described,old ones and new ones,GT,Ruby,Chinese,Russian all sound like crap.Invest in almost any NOS American or European tubes for best results,more expensive than the current Chinese and Russian crap,but well worth it.

 

[MusicManJP6]

I'm running all stock Mesa tubes in my Roadster and couldn't image it sounding any better really...

 

[vertigo_]

I'm running all stock Mesa tubes in my Roadster and couldn't image it sounding any better really...

same here...when I retube my roadster(next july) I will keep the same tubes it has now.

 

[212Mavguy]

Hi Joseph,

Stokes said:

quote]Like musicman said try putting the old preamp tubes back in.If it sounds better or good to you then you are okay.To me all the tubes you described,old ones and new ones,GT,Ruby,Chinese,Russian all sound like crap.Invest in almost any NOS American or European tubes for best results,more expensive than the current Chinese and Russian crap,but well worth it.[/quote]

+1

I agree with Stokes. Simply put, the modern tube producers can't duplicate the sounds of the vintage tubes, they don't know how to! And frankly I'd say that rather than new production tubes sound like crap, OLD PRODUCTION VINTAGE TUBES SOUND BETTER! Joseph, you hit the nail on the head when you wrote:

BUT, the drive and gain on channel 2 & 3 does not sound as well-defined OR harmonically rich after the change.

I have an idea for you. It will cost you money, but for what your amp costs the extra expense is minimal. To fail to try this invites some good natured ribbing...:wink: I have seen Mesa labeling on quite a few different manufacturor's tubes. In the early days of Mesa the tubes that they were able to purchase and relabel included both Sylvania short plate 12ax7's and Siemens 12ax7's, no longer manufactured today...I have seen tubes made by those makers with Mesa labels on ebay. Why don't you try purchasing some Siemens 12ax7's on ebay with the 14MM ribbed plates and the double getter halo getter supports? You will be getting a tube identical to what Mesa used to use when those tubes were being manufactured! And as far as being up to Mesa Specs, the Siemens have no problem, in fact, their factory etched code near the bottom of the bottle's side is an equal sign with a diagonal slash through it (get it, no equal? ) If you do purchase a few, and you don't hear a more defined and harmonically rich clean and overdriven tone I would be more than slightly skeptical of your ears.

In my humble opinion, the vintage american tubes such as Raytheon black plate, sylvania black plate, Philips euro company family (Siemens, Mullard, Amperex, and Philips were all owned by Philips!) RFT, GE, Telefunken smooth or ribbed plate, all tend to sound more musical than the new production tubes being made today, as well as many more unmentioned vintage makes. The magic of the old tube sounds died with their inventors. Not all of their knowledge was written down...I have purchased through sharp buying practices excellent vintage tubes for same or less than modern production tube prices, and I bet that Stokes has too... Peace, and best of luck to you!

 

[stokes]

Okay,to say they sound like crap is a little harsh.But in an older Fender type amp,they really do sound like crap...there I go again.Like Mavguy says,if you do a little work you can still find NOS at great prices.I have been scouring hamfests for years and have filled about 16 or so amps with NOS tubes and have 4 tube caddies full of NOS power,rectifier and preamp tubes as backups.My sons will never have to by a tube when I'm gone,my grandsons will still know what NOS tone is all about.Ebay is also a great place to find tubes,but you will have to cull out some less than ideal examples.Of course if you dont have the time or desire to search for the bargains it is still well worth the cost to get them from the suppliers,especially for preamp tubes.The life span you get out of a NOS RCA 12A?7 will pay for itself over any of the current production stuff, not to mention the improvement in tone.Obviously Mavguy and I are NOS tube addicts but there is good reason for it,the more you hear them the more you'll want them.

 

[lyman]

so here's something i've been wondering: have you guys come across any new amps that actually sound better with new production tubes instead of old stock? i would imagine that large scale production companies like mesa, marshall, fender, et al. design their amps with new glass in them for the sake of cost and simplicity.

on one hand i could see how something would sound better with the componants they're built around. but on the other hand i understand that upgrading to a better engineered component will improve function. just wondering if anybody has come across new amps that seem to be a better match for new tubes.

 

[212Mavguy]

Goood question, Lyman! Sure have heard some **** fine sounding new production amps! I think though, that since there were so much more different makes and styles of vintage old stock for a given type than is available today that there are more opportunities to find a particular combination that someone's ears would prefer over the stock setup. Certainly that is my experience with my amps.

Not all ears hear the same things so it's easy for me to agree to disagree with someone on this... :wink:

 

[123thefirst]

so here's something i've been wondering: have you guys come across any new amps that actually sound better with new production tubes instead of old stock?

Yup. My RKII clearly sounds better with stock Russian II 12Ax7's. I tried what several sources call "the best of the best" for guitar amplifiers, Amperex Bugle Boys from the 70's. The tone is great with the Bugle Boys and so are the dynamics. But as is case for most top quality NOS tubes, the dynamics are more than what you want for a guitar amp. You lose a noticable amount of sustain with them, especially at low to medium gain.

I can put one NOS in V1 and it works well with heightened dynamics and just a slight drop in sustain. I'm going to try a Tung Sol reissue in V2 to see if that makes up the difference without reverting the dynamics back to a stock response.

By the way, I'm not so very interested in "modern" tones. So this opinion has nothing to do with wanting to sound like so and so band or player or genre. I basically want my amp to do it all.

 

[recto-robbie]

I finally broke down and purchased some NOS tubes to run in my deuce.
They happen to be RFT ecc83's and some RCA 12ax7a's.
Im telling you, the sound out of these compared to any of the many current production 12ax7's I own is so much warmer. There is something else I notice about the sound of these compared to my current production tubes. My best explaination coming from a novice in knowledge about tube sounds is,, it adds a sort of 3D sound to your amp. Almost something in the nature of a very slight reverb sound added but not quite reverb. I cant explain it better than that but when I heard these I decided that I will no longer use current preamp tubes except for back up.
And up until I read this thread, never did I think that the NOS that im running took away from any sustain,, matter of fact I think they are better at that also.
Keep in mind also,, if you go the NOS route, you dont need to put NOS tubes in every preamp tube position. I didnt put one in the effects loop spot nor in v3 but I did find that adding one to the phase inverter helped some. V1 and V2 make the most difference.

 

[123thefirst]

I also use outrageously good quality cables throughout so they expose a lot of things you might not normally hear.

 

[212Mavguy]

+1 for recto-robbie

 

[user 7737]

V1 and V2 make the most difference.

the V5 in my cal 50+ make a god **** difference as well...