Recto fizz: Smooth that Recto like a baby's bottom.

[Blaklynx]

Hi all,

Want that smooth drive tone?

Want fizz gone? As in zero, dead? Want that grind gone? As in zero, dead?


Turn all tone knobs to zero. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.



I was mucking around with my Roadster tonight and for some reason the tone stack came into my head: Recto amp is post-gain, Marshall is pre-gain. Well, a crazee thought struck me: Turn all tone knobs to zero.

I didn't expect any real full sound to travel through the amp but boy, I was pleasantly surprised. All that was left was a rounded drive that sounded, well, smooth.

With just the channel volume and gain control, I could dial in all manner of dirt: clean, light crunch, crunch, high-gain. It was all there. The volume on guitar was pretty effective, too.

I also had a couple of dirt pedals (OD and Dist) and I'd kick them in/out and was also cascading them. I could dial in pretty much anything.

Having said all that, the tone may sound a little 'blanket over the speakers' with the gain down low but you need to experiment. Obvious to also say, but it depends on your guitar and pickups, too. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to push the front end with an EQ pedal.... my wife and son came home and it was dinner time... so I packed everything up.

You can see where I'm going with this: Tone knobs at zero and EQ up front to act as pre-gain tone shaping - there's your Marshall-like tone-drive.

What I did learn:

With the tone controls at zero and gain up, the drive is smooth. As I turned the treble up a little at a time, I could start to hear the fizz (and highs) coming in. I did the same with the mids and the bass (I turned these up one at a time with the others turned down). The mids and bass start introducing that grind. I did this several times so I could understand what the amp is doing (I'm a sucker for learning and focusing-in on stuff like this)

Considering the signal is distorted (depending on gain level) the tone controls will change the tone of the distorted signal (post-gain). I think that because the signal is already distorted, turning up the treble accentuates the peaks in the distorted signal and causes this fizziness, whereas if you increase treble in a clean sine wave, the signal is still clean before hitting the gain stage. I don't know if I'm explaining this properly or using the proper terminology but I can 'see it in my head' as a picture: A distorted signal being tone-shaped versus a clean signal being tone-shaped.

I think the best balance would be: pre-gain EQ (with an EQ pedal) and then a touch of post-gain EQ (if you want)

If you want to hear a smooth drive versus the Recto grind (A-B comparison), just play for a few minutes with the tone controls at zero, stop, adjust the tone controls to where you want, and play again. Night and Day difference.

I have to say, I am absolutely stoked about this. I like Marshall-like smooth drive and also Recto drive but I knew I could never have both from my Roadster. Well, I think I found my Holy Grail from mucking around and thinking outside the square.

Try it. You've got nothing to loose.

If you're happy with my findings, add a smiley to this thread.

I am, so here's the first one:

 

[jbird]

So you castrated your Roadster! :lol:

 

[Shemham]

Thanks for sharing this. I've never tried that on Recto so think it's worth a try. I generally find that less is more in many occasions. I have bass dialed out all the time on my lead modes as it seems to shift the mids where I like giving somewhat singing voice and overall better response.

Just splitting hairs here, but did you mean that the important part of Marshall's distortion character is formed after the tone controls or that the tone stack is situated in front of the gain stages? In my knowledge, Marshall ranging from JTM45 to JCM2203 have tone controls placed exactly where Rectos have: post-gain, before master volume and phase inverter (if you bypass the fx loop). I think your idea resembles Mark series tone controls rather than Marshall's.

 

[domct203]

I was mucking around with my Roadster tonight and for some reason the tone stack came into my head: Recto amp is post-gain, Marshall is pre-gain.

That is not always true. The DSL's for example have the tone stack driven by a cathode follower circuit after the last gain stage, very similar to the Recto.

Dom

 

[screamingdaisy]

I'm with the others. Marshall tone controls are post gain.

Anyway, since you're experimenting what's interesting is that you can also play around with how the controls interact with each other. If you dime the mids for instance then slowly bring up the treble you can hear how the mids are reduced and shifted as the treble increases. Same happens with the bass control. The reason is the entire signal is fed into the treble knob first, then whatever is left is shunted to the mids, and whatever is left after the mids is shunted to the bass.

Once you gain a good understanding of the EQ I believe most stop thinking in terms of how the amp sounds and start to dial in based on how they want it to feel.

One method used to separate two guitars in a two Recto band was to dial one guitar in normal and dial the other in by zeroing the treble and jacking the mids, then bring up the presence to dial in some top end.

 

[vick1000]

The Recto acts more like an active EQ, which is why it can really muddy up the tone when thing are cranked. The EQ controls interact like an active too, which is why the tone will change unexpectedly when going from zero to about 1.5 on the dial. For instance, you will get more scoop with the dial ot 1.5 on the mids, than at zero. At least thats the way my 2Ch Tri works.

 

[Blaklynx]

Hi guys,

Thanks for chiming in on this.

I guess I'm mistaken about the pre-gain tone controls on Marshall's. I know I read about some amp's tone controls pre-gain.... Maybe it was the Mark Series as mentioned and I've mistaken it for Marshall. Anyway....

I realise how the tone controls interact with each other. I had a Rectoverb for about 3 years but never tried zeroing the tone controls. I did run bass around 9:30 and treble around 10oclock and depending what I wanted out of the mids that'd be anywhere between 10-2oclock. I also pushed the front end a bit with various pedals set at different volume and gain outputs.

After finding this 'anomaly' I never thought the Roadster would be so convenient with the different drive characteristics available. How many have tried to smooth out a recto tone and battled with it? I did try with my Rectoverb but I could never get that fizz and grind out 100%; I got it smoother but still wasn't smooth enough.

If any of you have tried zeroing the tone controls, post your finding. I'd be interested to hear your opinion.

-B

 

[afu]

I've put mids on almost off and adjusted the other controls until the mids were back. Also, depending on the gain mode, I'll almost completely cut the presence. Everything on 11 to 1 and very little presence works well for me.

Another solution is to begin with the bass and presence turned all the way down. Turn the presence up until there's some sizzle/air and adjust it to taste. Then, set the mids and treble where you want them and, finally, dial the bass in until it has some bottom. It doesn't require a boost pedal or any other solution to remove fizz (Modern) or mud (Vintage) and, aside from being really anal, a sound is easy to set if you think of it as dialing out the excess from the peaks, rather than dialing in more frequencies. If one control is giving you hell, dial it in with your eyes closed.

The only exceptions are: Raw is less bright and sounds fine with the presence turned up if the treble is not turned up. Vintage sounds good with the treble turned up a little more than the others as long as the presence is dialed way back. Modern has the tightest bass and can handle a little more than Vintage without washing the mids.

The preamp delivers a LOT of all the usable frequencies and plenty that aren't usable. The whole thing is designed to keep the power amp from heavily distorting as it pushes an enhanced reproduction of the preamp. If a person tries to set it like an amp with a warmer bias, it will fizz and/or muddy up as the 6L6s saturate on one side of the signal's peak frequencies (bass and treble) and that shreds them (whump, fart, fart, or fizzle, sizzle, ouch).

 

[afu]

After reading this I had some ideas for my own setup which has a TC Nova System in the loop and for midi switching with a Voodoo Labs Control Switcher. The ideas were to change the levels for send and return, and to engage the Solo function. My loop is set to always be on.

The Nova System seems to be able to take quite a large signal. It has settings for "unity gain" to increase the input and there are preset output levels. I turned off the input gain and cranked the DR Send control until it was loud, but not clipping the Nova; it ended up at 3:00. The higher Send level makes the capacitor/pot filter go lower and adds some beef, which makes the highs seem tamer.

I set the Nova output for a level the was loud enough, but probably less than normal. Using a lower output removed a ton of hiss and enabled me to have more play in the amp's Volume and Solo controls. A strong input signal will also result in less chance for noise to be amplified by the unit.

Overall, the tube compression seems a bit higher, but the solid state/digital compression is lower. Tube compression is limited to the input and output filters. The Nova is broader at 20Hz-20kHz. This tweak would depend on how thick you want your sound, or if there's a need to remove some of the noise or top from your sound. The regular 50/50 amp/Nova sounds good and continues to sound good as the Send gets higher and the Nova gain is lowered.

Next, I put the output at about 9:00, engaged Solo and set it until the signal had some girth and plenty of volume, and then used the Output as a fine tuning volume control. The Solo pot is in series with the Output pot. When Solo is engaged, it lowers the frequency knee of the high pass filter created in combo with V4b's coupling cap and adds some body; my ear hears this as taming the highs once again.

I'm still playing with it all, but this is working pretty well. The Solo or Volume have more play, can be yanked up to Noon and not be deafeningly loud, and the highs are less shrill and/or dominant at lower volumes.

 

[afu]

Vick is right, btw. Tung Sol is rated for a maximum of 180W in the cathode. The only sure fix for that would be to play in spongy and tube rec to ensure the voltage is low enough to not cause it to fail prematurely. That makes "METAL!!!!" not an option in that case. Spongy/Silicon might work, but would be really close to the max. I'm too tired/ill to add up the current draw from all the tubes and calculate the drops over the power filter resistors to say for sure. I'm guessing the cathode voltage with Spongy/SS is somewhere between 170 and 185 based on the stated voltages.

Also, the schematic is assuming 130V from the wall, so it's stated voltages are a little higher than real life, but still high enough to avoid the spirals for Bold. That would make my guesstimate for the cathode with spongy/ss to be around 165-175; still very high for spirals.

 

[Blaklynx]

Some really interesting reading here.

I think the trick is to explore options and experiment with different setups. Think outside the square no mater how crazy or extreme you may think it is. Traditional amp tone settings are not the only way as I've discovered.

I have a long weekend this weekend (4 days off). I'll be experimenting with pre-gain EQ and post-gain EQ setups at the same time. I've got 3 EQ pedals I can use plus a Rocktron ProQ; a fantastic unit.

I've also got 3 preamps: Mesa Quad, Rocktron Piranha and a Sansamp PSA1. I think I'll hook them up through the amps loop via an 8ch multi-looper (a Rocktron Loop 8) so I can kick them in/out as required. I just need to keep an ear for phase cancellation.

The benefit of the Roadster is it's 4 channels. For Ch 3 and 4, one can be setup for recto and the other can be setup for a much smoother drive.....

I guess I'm trying to point out that amps don't just have to be used 'as designed' using traditional setups.

As a side note: If you're after some convenience or to explore various setups, connect a multi-looper to the amp. You can create several input/output options. A multi-looper can be setup in parallel or series or a combination of both and also split between amp's input side and its effects loop. A midi-controlled multi-looper is the best way to control the loops (RJM, Rocktron and others have them).

Plenty to think about....

-B

 

[TremoJem]

AFU...

Can you elaborate on the Tung-Sol conversation you introduced.

I am confused as to what you are speaking about.

I just bought four TS EL34s and three preamp tubes for my TOV.

I have my settings at spongy/silicone diode...what can I expect?

 

[Authorized Boogie]

Vick is right, btw. Tung Sol is rated for a maximum of 180W in the cathode. The only sure fix for that would be to play in spongy and tube rec to ensure the voltage is low enough to not cause it to fail prematurely. That makes "METAL!!!!" not an option in that case. Spongy/Silicon might work, but would be really close to the max. I'm too tired/ill to add up the current draw from all the tubes and calculate the drops over the power filter resistors to say for sure. I'm guessing the cathode voltage with Spongy/SS is somewhere between 170 and 185 based on the stated voltages.

Also, the schematic is assuming 130V from the wall, so it's stated voltages are a little higher than real life, but still high enough to avoid the spirals for Bold. That would make my guesstimate for the cathode with spongy/ss to be around 165-175; still very high for spirals.

?? Our schematics typically assume 117V. Thanks!

 

[afu]

Vick is right, btw. Tung Sol is rated for a maximum of 180W in the cathode. The only sure fix for that would be to play in spongy and tube rec to ensure the voltage is low enough to not cause it to fail prematurely. That makes "METAL!!!!" not an option in that case. Spongy/Silicon might work, but would be really close to the max. I'm too tired/ill to add up the current draw from all the tubes and calculate the drops over the power filter resistors to say for sure. I'm guessing the cathode voltage with Spongy/SS is somewhere between 170 and 185 based on the stated voltages.

Also, the schematic is assuming 130V from the wall, so it's stated voltages are a little higher than real life, but still high enough to avoid the spirals for Bold. That would make my guesstimate for the cathode with spongy/ss to be around 165-175; still very high for spirals.

?? Our schematics typically assume 117V. Thanks!

hmm. I looked again and see it's varistor rated for 130V. The symbol looks different than I'm used to and I was thinking that was incoming voltage. Thank you for the correction.

Also, after the SQL errors, this post is in the wrong topic or some posts are missing for some reason.

A Tung Sol can only withstand 180V on the cathode and shouldn't be in a cathode follower position (V3 and V4).... which was the topic this was once in.....

A tube rated higher would be necessary for those.



(I'm disabled. Sometimes, it affects my cognition. Right now I'm very confused.)

 

[afu]

Plexi-ish, anyone?

Ch2 Vintage

P: 2.5
V: <12
G: 11
B: 11
M: 9
T: 1

1.4 octave, +4 dB, parametric EQ boost centered on 750 Hz in the loop. A frown shape with a boss or mxr EQ pedal would do the same thing. I can enhance the upper bass with the amp's mid control this way and still cut through.

 

[Blaklynx]

Plexi-ish, anyone?

Ch2

P: 2.5
V: <12
G: 11
B: 11
M: 9
T: 1

1.4 octave, +4 dB, parametric EQ boost centered on 750 Hz in the loop. A frown shape with a boss or mxr EQ pedal would do the same thing. I can enhance the upper bass with the amp's mid control this way and still cut through.

Hi afu,

Can you please explain what you mean by 1.4 octave? I understand the rest of your statement.

Thanks.

 

[afu]

Hi afu,

Can you please explain what you mean by 1.4 octave? I understand the rest of your statement.

Thanks.

http://www.astralsound.com/parametric_eq.htm

 

[TremoJem]

AFU, that is interesting.

I have two TOVs and the Brown Sound/Plexi etc. is what I am reaching for.

I will let you know how I make out.

EL34s
Tung-Sol V1 & V2

I am trying various things like clean boost up front, using either OD pedal or JX-2 pedal...discussed further, below.

I also have a mid boost in my Radial JX-2 SwitchBone with two settings I can choose from. It allow 5dB boost and 10dB boost and both are of a different frequency respectively.

I need to get that info for you.

I also have some Xotic OD pedals...RC, AC, and BB and am experimenting with the RC as a clean boost.

I also have a GMajor that has a nice Parametric EQ, that I use in the loop...will see how that goes.

So lot's of options and little time.

I will report what I get from all of this.

I know it is not going to sound like a Marshall...I don't think I want that...I want a Recto/Marshall hybrid.

Just shooting for the Brown Sound/Plexi as a target is all.

 

[afu]

https://warpedmusician.wordpress.com/2015/07/08/emulating-marshall-tones-with-a-dual-rectifier/#more-280

That post is more about a 3 Channel, but I looked up your schematic to translate it to a Trem. I think Blues on Ch2 might work better for Plexi. The tone stack has less loss in the mids. The aforementioned PEQ wouldn't be right for the mids and the LDRs that give the bass boost would be shorted.

https://warpedmusician.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/marshall-vs-red.png

Above link shows centered EQ for the Red Ch vs a Plexi. I think a boost at around 300 Hz, 2 or 3 dB, 1 to 1.3 octaves would lift it enough to be really darn close, just don't go crazy on the dB boost. To sound natural, a wide, but small boost spreads it enough to avoid a wah filter sound and the hollow phasing issues. You can crank the distortion to a decent point without crazy saturation, too.

For an old school tone, I don't think you need any boost up front, unless yer running fuzz.

 

[TremoJem]

Thanks afu!