Question about swapping 6L6s in a new Rectifier!?

[papersoul]

Hey guys,

I have a 2011 Rectifier with the stock 6L6 tubes.

I read often that Mesa has the 6L6 side bias set fairly cold. I am interested to see what happens if I order a hotter grade of 6L6.
Has anyone tried this and if so, what was the result?

Thanks!

 

[BostonRedSox]

What exactly do you dislike about the fixed bias and the sound of your Dual Rectifier? More importantly, have you heard a Dual Recto that ran hotter tubes or had a bias mod done to it? I am asking because often times people over think their things and begin chasing ideas that are not worth worrying about. Mesa amps are truly supposed to sound great as they are, with Mesa tubes. I'd spend more time worrying about turning your 100 watt amp up and seeing how it sounds with some volume behind it. Mesa's are great in that they don't need to be cranked to sound good, but they do need some good volume behind them as well.

I think you are opening yourself up to a lot of differing opinions about a subject that is subjective at best. It's worth mentioning that limiting your time on forums like this (they can be helpful just as much as they can serve to be rather unhelpful) can be beneficial and will give you more time to spend towards playing your amp. Seriously, Mesa's are great as is and some people over think this fact and try to do too much to mod their new Rectos without getting a proper feel for how they act. Like any tube amp, Mesa's take time mastering and learning what you can pull out of the amp in terms of sounds and dynamics. Mesa is also very helpful in answering subjects like this too. By calling them you can save yourself some headache. After all, how is one to know how to sift through the good and bad info on a thread such as this one? Why spend more money and time tweaking what isn't broken?

I hope I can be of some help to you and congrats on your new amp. I have a Roadster that is a beast of a Recto, and I honestly haven't found the need to have it modded just yet.

 

[BostonRedSox]

Also bear in mind when you are playing your amp that the modes on each channel aren't necessarily indicative of what each channel is going to give you. For example, Vintage mode doesn't mean that with the flick of a switch your Recto is going to be a vintage Marshall or something of that nature. Each mode is capable of more gain and presence than the other, while also giving the player more bottom end and top end to their sound. People often find the Vintage mode to be the best for soloing because it gives you enough bottom end and gain, without making your lead tone sound too spikey. Others find that employing a tubescreamer style boost can also further aid one's lead tone when using a Recto. The addition of a tubescreamer is a very common practice with a Dual Recto and definitely worth trying.

 

[fluff191]

What exactly do you dislike about the fixed bias and the sound of your Dual Rectifier? More importantly, have you heard a Dual Recto that ran hotter tubes or had a bias mod done to it? I am asking because often times people over think their things and begin chasing ideas that are not worth worrying about. Mesa amps are truly supposed to sound great as they are, with Mesa tubes. I'd spend more time worrying about turning your 100 watt amp up and seeing how it sounds with some volume behind it. Mesa's are great in that they don't need to be cranked to sound good, but they do need some good volume behind them as well.

I think you are opening yourself up to a lot of differing opinions about a subject that is subjective at best. It's worth mentioning that limiting your time on forums like this (they can be helpful just as much as they can serve to be rather unhelpful) can be beneficial and will give you more time to spend towards playing your amp. Seriously, Mesa's are great as is and some people over think this fact and try to do too much to mod their new Rectos without getting a proper feel for how they act. Like any tube amp, Mesa's take time mastering and learning what you can pull out of the amp in terms of sounds and dynamics. Mesa is also very helpful in answering subjects like this too. By calling them you can save yourself some headache. After all, how is one to know how to sift through the good and bad info on a thread such as this one? Why spend more money and time tweaking what isn't broken?

I hope I can be of some help to you and congrats on your new amp. I have a Roadster that is a beast of a Recto, and I honestly haven't found the need to have it modded just yet.

Geez it's not like he is wanting to do a bias mod or something. Mesa DOES offer different color-rated power tubes to give different headrooms. What will that hurt?

To the OP, I would get some different Mesa power tubes (don't want to void that warranty), and experiment with the different color codes (which give different break up points). It isn't so much a tone difference than a feel difference IMO.

 

[papersoul]

Thanks guys!

I do use a Sonic Edge J&J Overdrive which is a tube screamer like OD pedal. Love it and it seems to work for this purpose as well.

I constantly read and from talking to people I know who sell tubes, say that Mesas are biased very cold on the 6L6 side.

So, what is this color coded tubes thing? I would guess the ones that break up earlier are the hotter tubes. Maybe Mesa sells them in different grades? Would this be something I could grab at Guitar Center?

One thing I di do was replace all the preamp tubes. I much prefer JJ ECC83s tubes in all my amps. It is like home to me in how it feels and sounds.

 

[NoGlassNoClass]

...replace all the preamp tubes. I much prefer JJ ECC83s tubes in all my amps. It is like home to me in how it feels and sounds.

Brand new 2011 Recto? Take a close look at the preamp tubes you took out of it. They ARE JJs.

 

[BostonRedSox]

What exactly do you dislike about the fixed bias and the sound of your Dual Rectifier? More importantly, have you heard a Dual Recto that ran hotter tubes or had a bias mod done to it? I am asking because often times people over think their things and begin chasing ideas that are not worth worrying about. Mesa amps are truly supposed to sound great as they are, with Mesa tubes. I'd spend more time worrying about turning your 100 watt amp up and seeing how it sounds with some volume behind it. Mesa's are great in that they don't need to be cranked to sound good, but they do need some good volume behind them as well.

I think you are opening yourself up to a lot of differing opinions about a subject that is subjective at best. It's worth mentioning that limiting your time on forums like this (they can be helpful just as much as they can serve to be rather unhelpful) can be beneficial and will give you more time to spend towards playing your amp. Seriously, Mesa's are great as is and some people over think this fact and try to do too much to mod their new Rectos without getting a proper feel for how they act. Like any tube amp, Mesa's take time mastering and learning what you can pull out of the amp in terms of sounds and dynamics. Mesa is also very helpful in answering subjects like this too. By calling them you can save yourself some headache. After all, how is one to know how to sift through the good and bad info on a thread such as this one? Why spend more money and time tweaking what isn't broken?

I hope I can be of some help to you and congrats on your new amp. I have a Roadster that is a beast of a Recto, and I honestly haven't found the need to have it modded just yet.

Geez it's not like he is wanting to do a bias mod or something. Mesa DOES offer different color-rated power tubes to give different headrooms. What will that hurt?

To the OP, I would get some different Mesa power tubes (don't want to void that warranty), and experiment with the different color codes (which give different break up points). It isn't so much a tone difference than a feel difference IMO.

Yeah, it was late and I realize my post does seem a bit more serious than I intended. I always thought the Mesa color coded tubes made no discernable difference in their amplifiers.

 

[BostonRedSox]

...replace all the preamp tubes. I much prefer JJ ECC83s tubes in all my amps. It is like home to me in how it feels and sounds.

Brand new 2011 Recto? Take a close look at the preamp tubes you took out of it. They ARE JJs.

This is a good point as well. All Mesa preamp tubes nowadays are JJs, while their 6L6s are Rubys. You can call Mesa to confirm this, but this is the information I got from them last November.

 

[screamingdaisy]

I constantly read and from talking to people I know who sell tubes, say that Mesas are biased very cold on the 6L6 side.

Mesa does bias most of their amps cold on the 6L6 side. I've tried swapping a hotter set of tubes and the results weren't all that exciting. Maybe it's my limited experience speaking, but I think hotter bias is more effective when you're running EL34s.

Mesa's also come stock with JJ ECC83s in the preamp.

 

[papersoul]

...replace all the preamp tubes. I much prefer JJ ECC83s tubes in all my amps. It is like home to me in how it feels and sounds.

Brand new 2011 Recto? Take a close look at the preamp tubes you took out of it. They ARE JJs.

They just had Mesa stamped on the preamp tubes. How can you tell?
So maybe I will put the preamp tubes bakc in but I took them out of order so I have no idea which is the balanced PI.

The power tubes are rebranded Ruby tubes.

If I put the preamp tubes back in, I wouldn't know which is the PI balanced tube anyway! LOL.

I compared the stock Mesa tubes and they look nothing like the JJs I have in there now.

 

[screamingdaisy]

They just had Mesa stamped on the preamp tubes. How can you tell?

I have a bunch of JJs around my house, so I just held them up to each other and compared. Beyond that, Mesa's confirmed it on this forum, plus they'll tell you if you ask.

If I put the preamp tubes back in, I wouldn't know which is the PI balanced tube anyway! LOL.

Balanced PIs are more of a Hi-Fi thing... most guitar amps are designed with unbalanced power sections, so even if the PI is balanced the final result will be unbalanced regardless.

Beyond that, if you like the way your amp sounds at the moment I'd leave things as they are.

 

[BostonRedSox]

If your Recto is a new one, then you have the JJs. They made the switch in 2009.

The older Mesa preamp tubes will say either Chinese or Russian on them. The JJs will just read 12AX7.

 

[AudioMonk]

Much of the dual rectifier's tonal character or color is really more about the amps gain stage architecture in the pre amp rather than output tube characteristics. This is why Mesa doesn't have a bias pot to adjust. They set the bias slightly cold to accommodate any margin of error in output tube sets drawing more current than another at a given voltage. Almost all distortion in the dual rec. And triple rec. is generated in the preamp before the phase inverter. Much of the tube lore relates to non master volume or early master volume amps where the output section was being driven hard enough to distort.
All of that aside, many of my customers like the red sets from Mesa. The difference in current draw of the Mesa color system is a matter of several miliamps rather than 10ma or more which one could experience say going from a jj 6l6 to a Sovtek. This why Mesa's color system works in these amps and does not overheat tubes... All tubes are tested to remain in a certain window of current draw as not to break down.

 

[papersoul]

I held my stock mesa preamp tube sup to the JJs and they look totally different. LOL.
I am keeping the JJs in.

If Mesa biases it cold to compensate for any margin of error.....why is the EL34 side biased so hot!?

It sounds like it would be awaste of time for me to try a different color set of mesa tubes. Where do they list those specs?

 

[droptrd]

I like my 6L6s hot in mesas. Its a noticable "wow" for me. better feel and sustain in the high gain channels. Better feel and dynamics in the clean channels. I just tell my supplier (Dougs Tubes) I need tubes for mesa amps and that I would like a "hot set".

 

[AudioMonk]

The primary impedance of the output transformer in Mesa dual rec. Amps is almost identical to that of a 100watt Marshall. 6L6's running at this spec will have their service life shortened if run too hot. Also, the EL34 side is not biased too hot. In fact it's very conservative for an amp running almost 490 plate volts which the 34's can handle without a prob. Another reason why the 6l6 side is adjusted cooler is because of the high plate volts for 6l6. Don't forget the EL34 can easily handle 20 more volts on the plates at the top end of current to plate volt ratio.

 

[papersoul]

I like my 6L6s hot in mesas. Its a noticable "wow" for me. better feel and sustain in the high gain channels. Better feel and dynamics in the clean channels. I just tell my supplier (Dougs Tubes) I need tubes for mesa amps and that I would like a "hot set".

Yep, that's what I asked Doug, he said a hot set of the Ruby 6L6 tubes are the way to go.

 

[papersoul]

The primary impedance of the output transformer in Mesa dual rec. Amps is almost identical to that of a 100watt Marshall. 6L6's running at this spec will have their service life shortened if run too hot. Also, the EL34 side is not biased too hot. In fact it's very conservative for an amp running almost 490 plate volts which the 34's can handle without a prob. Another reason why the 6l6 side is adjusted cooler is because of the high plate volts for 6l6. Don't forget the EL34 can easily handle 20 more volts on the plates at the top end of current to plate volt ratio.

So you think running hotter grade 6L6 tubes is a bad move? I was going to run standard grade EL34s but I can tell the EL34 side is biased hotter.