Pulling two power tubes????????????

[TremoJem]

If I decide to pull two power tubes out of my Tremoverb, what change do I make to my speaker connection?
I have a combo and am currently using the 8ohm option.
I can't remember what to change to...either 16 or 4 ohm.

Also:

What can I expect as far as sound change. I know the volume will be essentially unaffected per some earlier posts from other members, but what about saturation?
Do the two remaining power tubes saturate any earlier?
Will my tone change.
I basically keep the clean channel gain at about 11 on a clock face and the master at about 12. It has a slight push and saturation to it but for the most part it is clean.
I keep my lead channel gain at max on the highest or red gain setting and the master at about 1 or 2, because it is so damn loud, but it is like butter and very nice to the ears.

Lastly:
I have mesa yellow dot 6L6's in my amp. These are rated as middle saturation or in other words a well rounded tube that will saturate at mid point compared to lower saturation tubes that saturate quickly as you push them, and completely different from hi saturation tubes that will almost not saturate even if you crank the channel master.

If I use the hi saturation tubes in stead of middle saturation tubes will I get cleaner cleans?
Will this affect my lead channel and reduce the saturation I am used too?
Or, am I not even saturating the power tubes and all the saturation I am hearing is from my preamp and changing power tubes based on saturation is not even going to make a difference to me?

Thanks to everyone for your kind answers.

I have no complaints about my tone.
All works well.
I wish I had cleaner cleans or more headroom in my clean channel. I do use single coil pickups and only experience saturation when using humbuckers and playing a little more aggressively.

I wish my lead channel had more punch or percussive sound to it, but I can't turn up the channel master to achieve this because it is so loud and loses the creamy tone. Maybe I should back off my gain and turn up the channel master to achieve some sort of balance whilst retaining my great tone. Also if I was a better player maybe all that gain is would not be so necessary...oh well the forever never ending search for perfection...

 

[94Tremoverb]

If I decide to pull two power tubes out of my Tremoverb, what change do I make to my speaker connection?
I have a combo and am currently using the 8ohm option.
I can't remember what to change to...either 16 or 4 ohm.

4 ohm jack on the amp with the 8 ohm speakers. Also, you need to pull one rectifier tube if you use the tube setting. (It doesn't matter which one.)

What can I expect as far as sound change. I know the volume will be essentially unaffected per some earlier posts from other members, but what about saturation?
Do the two remaining power tubes saturate any earlier?

Yes, slightly. But probably not that you'll really notice in volume terms, and still not until it's really loud.

Will my tone change.

A little - more 'pushed' and focused sounding and not as complex and 'wide'.

If I use the hi saturation tubes in stead of middle saturation tubes will I get cleaner cleans?

Maybe. But the breakup on the clean sounds with this amp is mainly caused by the preamp gain structure - it's actually a one-channel amp with alternate control networks, so the clean channel is really the high-gain channel with the gain set (internally) very low. As such it will never have as much clean headroom as a dedicated clean amp.

Will this affect my lead channel and reduce the saturation I am used too?

Yes. Any tube change you make with this amp affects both channels.

Or, am I not even saturating the power tubes and all the saturation I am hearing is from my preamp and changing power tubes based on saturation is not even going to make a difference to me?

It depends what volume you're playing at. At lower volume, the power tubes are not breaking up anyway so changing to one with less breakup will not change that, although it may change the tone slightly. To get into power tube breakup you've got to be really cranking it, higher than you probably would in normal use.

I wish I had cleaner cleans or more headroom in my clean channel. I do use single coil pickups and only experience saturation when using humbuckers and playing a little more aggressively.

That does sound like it's probably preamp breakup.

I wish my lead channel had more punch or percussive sound to it, but I can't turn up the channel master to achieve this because it is so loud and loses the creamy tone. Maybe I should back off my gain and turn up the channel master to achieve some sort of balance whilst retaining my great tone.

One thing you could try would be to replace the Phase Inverter tube (V6) with a 12AT7 instead of a 12AX7. This will make the power section a little cleaner and clearer-sounding, which will very slightly increase the clean headroom and make the distortion snappier and tighter. Not sure if these are *both* what you want , but it's an easy thing to try - no biasing or other changes needed, just the tube.

I run my Tremoverb with 12AT7s in both the PI and in V5, which is the reverb drive stage and also part of the normal signal path - this makes the reverb deeper and more 'Fendery', and also reduces the overall volume of the amp slightly.

Personally, I prefer the sound with four power tubes to the sound with two, even though it means you have to turn the volume down very slightly further - but it is very slight, just a hair. Other people like it the other way, so it's worth trying both.

Good luck!

 

[TremoJem]

Great answers, thanks for the time and information.

I will try and post back results.

First I have to get some new tubes.

 

[TremoJem]

Hey Brother,

What happens if I use 5751 in V1 or V2 etc as long as it is not the tube positions that require an absolute 12AX7?

 

[YellowJacket]

I feel like chiming in with some more insights / opinions.

What can I expect as far as sound change. I know the volume will be essentially unaffected per some earlier posts from other members, but what about saturation?
Do the two remaining power tubes saturate any earlier?

Yes, slightly. But probably not that you'll really notice in volume terms, and still not until it's really loud.

When running one tube rectifier with the controls set to spongy / tube rectifier, you'll get a more crunchy and less buzzy tone at marginally lower volumes. It is almost practice level worthy, if you're running a 1 x 12 or 2 x 12.

Will my tone change.

A little - more 'pushed' and focused sounding and not as complex and 'wide'.

It is thinner, brighter and clearer. You also loose the low end whump and the thickness / meatiness, but you gain much more tightness. The amp definitely has more grunt with 4 power tubes. I'd say changing from 4 power tubes to 2 power tubes is more of a tonal difference than a volume difference. Overall, 100 watts is more aggressive / heavier than 50 watts. 50watts does great rock / punk tones more than anything.

If I use the hi saturation tubes in stead of middle saturation tubes will I get cleaner cleans?

Maybe. But the breakup on the clean sounds with this amp is mainly caused by the preamp gain structure - it's actually a one-channel amp with alternate control networks, so the clean channel is really the high-gain channel with the gain set (internally) very low. As such it will never have as much clean headroom as a dedicated clean amp.

This explains why I had so much frustration with cleans on my Dual Recto. I mean they're good for very clean stuff but when you try to clip them a bit, it just sounds nasty.

Or, am I not even saturating the power tubes and all the saturation I am hearing is from my preamp and changing power tubes based on saturation is not even going to make a difference to me?

It depends what volume you're playing at. At lower volume, the power tubes are not breaking up anyway so changing to one with less breakup will not change that, although it may change the tone slightly. To get into power tube breakup you've got to be really cranking it, higher than you probably would in normal use.

I think with the two less tubes, you can crank the preamp a bit more to achieve the same volume, which means breakup sooner. With a recto, using one pair of power tubes, one rectifier tube, and the variac set to spongy really accentuates this effect. Changing the number of power tubes DOES make a difference, which is why it is a toggle controlled feature on the newer heads. I want to emphasize that I use my Dual Rectifier and my Electra Dyne at 45 watts for low volume operation without exception. It simply does get louder to add more power.

 

[94Tremoverb]

What happens if I use 5751 in V1 or V2 etc as long as it is not the tube positions that require an absolute 12AX7?

A 5751 (or 12AU7) is fine in any slot, just don't use a 12AT7 or 12AY7 in V3 or V4.

If I use the hi saturation tubes in stead of middle saturation tubes will I get cleaner cleans?

Maybe. But the breakup on the clean sounds with this amp is mainly caused by the preamp gain structure - it's actually a one-channel amp with alternate control networks, so the clean channel is really the high-gain channel with the gain set (internally) very low. As such it will never have as much clean headroom as a dedicated clean amp.

This explains why I had so much frustration with cleans on my Dual Recto. I mean they're good for very clean stuff but when you try to clip them a bit, it just sounds nasty.

It's worth just clarifying that this only applies to the 2-channel Dual/Triple and the Tremoverb. The 3-channels, Single and Rectoverb use a dedicated clean channel with a separate signal path and fewer tube stages. (Channels 2 and 3 still share the same circuit though.)

Most people think this gives a "better" (i.e. more glassy/Fendery) clean sound - I actually think it ends up a bit hard and sterile, and I prefer the more jangly/Marshally clean sound on the 2-channels. I know I'm in a minority though.

 

[TremoJem]

Thanks guys.

 

[TremoJem]

Well currently I have SED in both amps, one with 34s and one with 6L6s.

V1 has a Tung-Sol and V6 has a 12AT7 by JAN Philips.

It has cleaned up.

I am not interested in removing two tubes anymore.

I am just interested in adding some 5751s to clean up the amp a little bit more.

Then I will add my new BB Preamp and some other assorted overdrive/distortion pedals to help out the team when I need gain.

Thanks for all of your help.

Sorry it took so long to repost.

 

[TremoJem]

So I have the BBP-AT AND have added the RC Booster to my line up.

They sound great.

Here is an interesting discovery.

The Radial ToneBone SwitchBone has a Boost on it. I can select from two types of boost either together or independent of each other, one of which is "Mid" and the other is "Gain".

"Mid" boost has three settings "Off", "5dB", and "10dB".

"Gain" boost has "Mute", "Mid Only", and "Gain" (which combines the "Mid" selection from above with the "Gain" you set via a potentiometer).

I worked with the amps first to dial in the settings I wanted from them directly.

After working with the Radial I settled on some "Gain" with 5dB of "Mid".

This really opens up the sound and defines it a little more with focused and articulate tone.

So now I have gain hitting the front of the amp, pedals hitting the Radial pedal and EQ hitting the FXLoop, which by the way I am now thinking of altering a little bit more now that I have found the feature on the Radial to be so useful.

I want to decrease frequencies in the FXLoop and so much add frequencies if that makes sense.

Let me know what your opinions are, thanks.