Mesa Cabinetry mystery?!!

[gts]

There seems to be some mystery about Mesa cabinetry.
About not only the materials they use now and in the past but,
also about the joinery they use now and in the past.

Mesa currently use Baltic birch plywood.
Have they always used it?
No.
In fact they used "Luan" (a cheap Philippino Mahogany plywood) as well as other plywoods.

I'm in the process of re-tolexing a Mesa widebody head and a old metal grille Mesa halfback 4x12
and have taken pictures which will confirm the above.
I will post the pics soon.
(I've re-tolexed a few Mesa cabs over the years so none of this is new info.)

As for joinery of their plywood cabinets.
Do they use half blind dovetails on their plywood cabs now or in the past?
No.
Do they use dovetails of any sort on their plywood cabs now or in the past?
No.

They use a half-lap Rabbet joint (then and now). They also reinforce the half lap rabbet joint with nails/ wire brads.
The pictures will show this as well.

Many of you know I build cabs (for fun - not for profit - it's a hobby).
I keep getting inquiries asking if half-blind dovetails joints are used on the plywood cabinets I make,
because the people asking think this is what Mesa does.
Where this misinformation/ rumor about Mesa's plywood cab joinery started is anybodies guess.

As for Mesa's hype behind their use of Baltic Birch Plywood...
It's a long story, one which I will expand upon as I have time.
But in short I suspect it has more to do with the machinery they now use (CNC machines) to cut their cabs than anything else.
The rest is more or less hype.

If it isn't hype then all their old cabs: head cabs, combos, 1x12's, Thiele's, 2x12's, 4x12's, were all sub-grade crap.
Which they are not.
Many thousands upon thousands are still in use 25-30+ years after being made and work/ perform just fine.

So forget the Batlic Birch hype, and the misinformation about the joinery used on their plywood cabs.

Yes they use half blind dovetails on their hardwood cabs. It's a strong decorative joint.
But it is not used on their plywood cabs, then or now, nor is it needed.

 

[RR]

Just adding to this, you would have to use front support board when routing dovetails on plywood to prevent from splintering. Just too tedious to do on production basis.

I'd assume if they use Luan plywood, its multi-ply say 10-plys or better. I'm current using this Far East 13-ply birch plywood from a local shop that's about the price of A/C plywood you could buy at Home Depot that splinters easily. Ugh ...

Nothing wrong with rabbet joint.

 

[Boogiebabies]

I am glad this is your hobby and not mine.

I am too lazy for such detailed study and CNC programing. :mrgreen:
All I can say is that your cabs are far better in every aspect, and you love what you do.

 

[gts]

Just adding to this, you would have to use front support board when routing dovetails on plywood to prevent from splintering. Just too tedious to do on production basis.

I'd assume if they use Luan plywood, its multi-ply say 10-plys or better. I'm current using this Far East 13-ply birch plywood from a local shop that's about the price of A/C plywood you could buy at Home Depot that splinters easily. Ugh ...

Nothing wrong with rabbet joint.

The Luan ply I have seen in their cabs had a solid core of about 1/2" sandwiched between 4 or so outer layers.
A very common Luan back then.
So it wasn't anywhere near 10 plys or better.

They may have used some sort of AC ply too. At least that is what the plywood used in the latest cabs I've stripped looks like.

Yeah there are some great quality multi ply (9-13 plys) plywoods out there these days (other than Baltic Birch).

I am glad this is your hobby and not mine.

I am too lazy for such detailed study and CNC programing. :mrgreen:
All I can say is that your cabs are far better in every aspect, and you love what you do.

Thanks Ed

 

[Triaxstasy]

very informative read...looking forward to the pics

 

[Boogiebabies]

Harkens back to my mindless fantasy of a ported Okoume or Pine 1X12......

 

[gts]

Well it's taken awhile but here'a current Mesa Theile I am working on.
Notice the Plywood!
It sure as hell ain't Baltic Birch!
It's a 5 ply Luan Mahogany plywood. (or 7 ply if you want to count the two veneers)
This is a very common plywood used by Mesa in the 70's, and 80's.
They very well could have used in the 90's and beyond.

There is nothing bad about any of the cabs they made back then.
Many many many are still in use today. And nobody using them seems to be complaining they weren't made form Baltic Birch!

 

[gts]

Here's the same Thiele cab. Notice the Rabbet Joint at this corner.
And along the top you can see the nail holes where it has been nailed together.
This is the joinery on every Mesa cab I have stripped and re-tolexed.
Doesn't matter if it was a Combo, Short Head, Long Head, 1x12, Thiele, 4x12 (The older Metal Grille style), they all used the same joinery.
Glued, Clamped and Nailed!
Fwiw Mesa STILL uses this type of joinery on their tolexed cabs (see pic below).

More than a few have asked if I use Dovetails on my plywood cabs. I say Mesa doesn't and nether do I.
Funny most (if not all) of these people never ask me to make them a cab.
It's like they expected or think it should be a dovetailed plywood joint because that is the way Mesa does it.
Mesa only uses Dovetails on their hardwood cabs.

Here's a pic right from the Mesa factory showing one of their current 4x12's.
Notice the Joint!

 

[knotts]

Mesa doesn't use dovetails on their hardwoods. They use finger joints.

 

[gts]

Mesa doesn't use dovetails on their hardwoods. They use finger joints.

Sorry but you are wrong my friend, they use dovetails!
Actually they are half blind dovetails.

Here's a Mesa Combo showing those half blind dovetails! (Enjoy Cycril's pics!)

 

[knotts]

Mesa doesn't use dovetails on their hardwoods. They use finger joints.

Sorry but you are wrong my friend, they use dovetails!
Actually they are half blind dovetails.

Here's a Mesa Combo showing those half blind dovetails! (Enjoy Cycril's pics!)

I stand corrected. Those are indeed dovetails. All of the pics I have seen never show it close enough to see the angle of the joint. I used finger joints on my project, but it still looks good anyway. Oh well.

 

[gts]

Wanted to revive/ add to this thread.

Here's a great quote about cab making and marketing from Andy Marshall at THD.
After testing all sorts of woods for making cabs (testing for strength and or how it affected tone amongst other things), swapping the same chassis and/ or speaker(s) in an out of cabs of the same size made with different woods (including plywood), and different joinery, they came to the conclusion that each cab even those with the same wood could and did sound different. But there was no rhyme or reason/ specifics as to why one sounded better than the other.

"So we ended up going with plywood because it was more consistent. We used finger joints — frankly for marketing reasons. The fact is, there are stronger joints, but people seem to think that finger joints were the best way to go because that’s what was used on old Fenders. There are other kinds of joints that are less expensive and hold up better, but we were trying to do exactly what Fender had done, wherever reasonable."

I can't say how many times people have asked about whether I use finger joints or dovetails on the plywood cabs I make because they think Mesa did this on their cabs.
As stated in the fist post and shown in the pics Mesa didn't and doesn't do this.
It might look cool of they did but when a cab is going to be tolexed the joinery appearance becomes null and void.
The myth that Mesa (or whoever) used a certain type of joinery which "made the cab" sound special or be stronger etc is just that, a myth.

 

[Rhoads]

Thanks again GTS, You got the Knowledge of Yoda i'm one of your Padawan. :lol: