Make a Mark IV sound full and robust at low volumes?

[spaivxx]

I knew it would happen. tonight, my other guitarist is complaining that the Mark IV was way too loud. Serves hm right, for weeks he drowned out my Carvin Nomad with his Fender Hot Rod Deville.

We are practicing at lower volumes than any band I have ever been in. Even My fusion trio plays louder. My problem is that when i turn the Mark IV down to our vlume, the thing loses all its balls, especially embarassing when the Fender accross the room sounds so good at this volume.

Tonight, I had a THD Hotplate on the Mark IV. This seemed to do the trick, but when you get into the -12db or -16db range of attenuation, the tone loses all life it seems.

During part 3 of practice, I disconnected the Hotplate and ran just straight guitar to amp. I tried using the Master Volume to regulate, no good, just end up with thin tones. So I opened the Master up to 9, and set all the channel masters around 2. So far this seems to offer the most promise for achieving some kind of good tone at low volumes.

Tomorrow I may try loweing the Master from 9 to like 6.5-7 and turning the channel masters up a little. Got a gig Saturday so I dont want to mess too much with settings before then.

I am new to the kind of music we are playing (blues/southern rock) and new to using a single coil guita. I am also new to dialing in the types of tones we are using and playing at low volumes (like home stereo listening volume). I used to have a Tonelab and JC120 for lower volume stuff, not anynmore....

Any advice? I need a good clean, a good rhythm that crunches and cleans up well when guitar volume is dialed back, and of course I need a good lead tone. Would like to have the amp running without stomps (except wah).

 

[Russ]

Sounds like you are on the right path by increasing the Master and lowering the channel masters for volume control. I would suggest using R2 as your channel to hang out in for a blues/southern rock scenario. If you are suffering from a lack of fullness then I would suggest using more speakers because it offers a fullness that you don't get with just a single 12. I would also suggest moving to a lower wattage speaker selection at the same time. Being that you will not be pushing the amp by any means then I would say that a 4x12 greenback cabinet might be in order or even H30s. If you have 65s or V30s they would be great there too. I prefer Celestions to most other speakers other than the EV, but even the EV has its place. Personally if it were me having to play that gig (blues/southern rock with single coils ) I would probably be slinging my Strat or ASAT Classic plugged into my JMP with my 1960ax. There is just something about that vibe that really does it for me when playing southern rock though I still prefer my Les Pauls. It is either that or go borrow an old Fender for the blues parts. Though I can say that I love a Flying V or even a Les Paul for blues too but through the Marshall. I am of the guitar volume and tone knob tweaking variety. I don't believe that guitars sound their best dimed all the time but there is the occasion that it serves its purpose. I don't believe in attenuators either because they just suck tone no matter what. They take away volume but in return they take some of your tone and your soulful expression. I also believe that it might be too soon for you to be playing out in this mode without having your sound completely dialed. I know at least myself I hate flying by the seat of my pants.

 

[Mr. Brady]

Wow. 9 on the master and 2 on the channel? I run in tweed, simul, triode and run about 3-4 on the master and 2 on the channel and that's plenty lound for even our drummer who has a heavy hand. You sure somethings not wrong with your amp? When was the last time you changed power tubes?

 

[Blueshaggis]

I also like to keep my big output knob up high...about 8-10
with the channel masters lower. Sounds best with the masters
in the 2 to 5 or 6 range depending. (Triode/ClassA/Tweed).
And I agree with the "tone twiddler" comment from a previous
poster i.e. use your guitars volume knob to bring down the crunch
for your clean sound. Try using your "clean" channel for this. Run the
Rythm 1 gain about 6-10 and dial it down for cleans from your guitar.
That's the "blues approved" method. Then you can use Rythm2 and Lead
for alternate lead tones (they can clean up well with the aforementioned
method too if the gain isn't set too high). Have fun. After owning my
Boogie for 11+ years I'm STILL fooling with the knobs but it always
sounds good..............

 

[HappyStrat]

Been there, done that & new tubes fixed it for me. Power tubes or Preamp tubes, I don't really know who the culprit was & I don't really care. Now, I'm running 2 JJ 6L6's, 2 JJ E34L's & Tung Sol 12AX7's. It smokes at bedroom levels very close to what it does at higher volumes. PS: The cleans are very crispy & dynamic too.

 

[JOEY B.]

I am a firm believer in the "tone twiddler" method. I can get a wide variety of tones from my non-channel switching Mark I . I do this with a modified Boss OD-1, the under chassis "gain boost/EQ" footswitch, and both the volume and tone controls on my guitar. It is a bit more work than just stomping one button, but it can be done. As for the volume issue, I think of my Boogies like an expensive Italian sports car. Sure you can drive your Ferrari around the subdivision at 20 mph, and look cool doing it. But I would rather be on the open road at 150 mph+.

 

[Living_justice]

Happy strat, do you think using jj e34l, that it has more gain and better clear bass, sounds to me it does, also its amazing and lower volumes now indeed.

 

[HappyStrat]

I've always been a freak for EL34/E34L's. On my Mark IV, I always select the 2 outside E34L's and on my Road King, I select the 2 E34L's too. I'm just not much of a 6L6 kind of guy. When I replaced the Mesa 12AX7's with Tung Sol 12AX7's, it brought out incredible increases in gain, mids, etc. Preamp tubes are the most overlooked when searching for that holy grail tone. Check out this article on preamp tubes:
http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/12ax7.html

 

[JOEY B.]

If your Mk IV is a 1x12 compact combo, add a 1x12 Mesa thiele extension cabinet with an EVM-12L. This will give you balls at any volume, hopefully enough to bury the Hot Rod Fender. :twisted:

 

[spaivxx]

Thanx for all the helpful hints yall.

We did the gig Saturday at a nice sized club packed with a couple hundred people. We were setting up on the tail end of some companies Xas party and they had rented out the club for the night. We thought we were going to get a paid cancellation, just as we started reloading our gear, the club owner asked us to start setting up and go on.

Since the night went so weird on us, we set up quickly and ended up NOT mic'ing the guitars. I had my Mark IV dialed in for a nice quiet tone, figuring we were shooting for a good low stage volume and just sending the loud **** through the PA.

First song, my other guitarists Fender Twin ate me alive. I went quickly between songs and flipped the power up to Full, dialed up the master a little, and got a much better tone. Still, his twin, pushing out of 2 12's, just had a bit beefier tone. I got GOOD tones out of the Mark IV combo that night, but not great. Well, REALLY GOOD, but not great.

However, I have a Boogie 2x12 on the way, and I am going to get the Eurotubes High gain kit with EL34/6L6 combo. I also ordered a Mark IV rack kit off eBay. I am going to stick the combo box in the closet and save it for if I ever want to go to a 1x12 combo, or if I ever need to sell the amp, would be nice to offer the rack kit as a "Buy It Now" bonus...

I think the new tubes and 2x12 cab will get me the "oomph" I m used to. I have never gigged with combo amps before, always had 2 to 4 4x12 cabs behind me. I also never tried getting Alman Brother or SRV tones before, six months ago I could not even name two songs from either artist. Dialing in Vai, Petrucci, Metallica tones.... cake... These tones for the music I am playing now are more nuanced, subtle. More difficult than learning to play a new genre is learning to play with the appropriate tones.

My other guitarist and singer are both screaming at me to get high dollar NOS tubes for my Mark IV. My guitarist is the type who believes "spend less on the amp and dump the cash into the tubes...". I think the JJ set will do me right though.

One question... I have never tried the integrated quad before.... Do I need to have my Mark IV rebiased when putting the EL34's in the outer sockets? I am a guitarist, not an amp tech, so I wont even think about sticking probes in tube sockets and such (electricity phobia...). I assume that it is not a plug and play thing though....

 

[Blueshaggis]

Dude, I'm really perplexed how your bandmates Fender could
have given you any problems at all, 2x12's or not ,unless your
power tubes are like really fried or something. I don't get it. That
thing has got 85 watts you realize? It should blow anything else off
the stage if you want it to............
If you really want to do the blues thing, forget (for awhile anyway)
that you've got a 3 channel amp. Get your Rhythm1 sounding great
for a SOLO tone and clean up with the guitar volume, as stated already.
You gotta balance how hot your gain knob is for a solo and clean tone
and that depends on just how clean you require. Myself, I always have
a touch at least of "fur" on my "clean" tones on a blues gig. Get that right
at the lowest wattage setting and then just up the power and voicing buttons till the power/volume needs are right for the gig. Your global master can be up around 5 that way and the channel masters the same
approximately. When you master that, THEN worry about the other two
channels and use those tones for variety basically. Just my two cents on
the blues/roots thing since you said in your above post you weren't even
familiar with those artists (tsk, tsk, tsk.......you need to listen to some
REAL geetar players my friend).........the old cats NEVER used channel
switching..........the newer blues cats do though.....listen to Gary Moore's
blues stuff for that or ZZ Top and the like. It's all there in your amp. It just
takes awhile to learn. If you wanna play the blues though you gots to listen, listen, listen, listen, listen to the blues and get the changes and tones inside your head. Stevie Ray is an excellent guy to start with then go
back deeper.......Freddy King, Albert King, BB King, Johnny Winter, Muddy Waters etc. etc. etc.......I could keep going but this post is getting very long. I hope I haven't bored anyone
PS....check out the newer guys too like Tommy Castro and Robben Ford
and Chris Cain etc. (OK I said I was going to stop...sheesh.....)

 

[HappyStrat]

One question... I have never tried the integrated quad before.... Do I need to have my Mark IV rebiased when putting the EL34's in the outer sockets? I am a guitarist, not an amp tech, so I wont even think about sticking probes in tube sockets and such (electricity phobia...). I assume that it is not a plug and play thing though....

The Eurotubes integrated quad is already bias matched for your Mark IV, it's as simple as "plug & play".

Don't underestimate what the MK IV can do. If you're not tweaking the controls in certain positions, it can definitely sound like crap. I've had mine since 1991 & I'm still learning how to tweak the settings. When you do come across a sweet setting that you really like, put the guitar down & get some paper and a pencil to copy those settings down. When I used to find a sweet spot, I would tell myself no need to write it down, I'll just remember it. Trust me, you won't remember it, cause there are just too many setting possibilities.

When you get those new tubes & the settings perfected, you will crush your pal's Fender like a bug.