Low wattage amps and bass response

[EtherealWidow]

I was reading through the TA-15 manual and it was mentioning a lot of things about it being easier to get a flubby sound when in the low watt modes. I have a 5:25, and typically I don't run the bass high enough in the 5 or 25 watt modes for this to ever be an issue, however I do notice that there is inherently, significantly less bass. But my main question is this: why do lower wattage amps typically have such a hard time with bass response? It would also explain why all bass amps have a ton of watts. Any help appreciated.

 

[MrMarkIII]

You are correct, sir. Bass frequencies eat watts. No watts, no bass.

 

[fluff191]

Bass frequencies eat watts. No watts, no bass.

Bingo.

 

[Jackie]

I don't know about that, my pop's Class5 combo is a 5W little ******* and it has plenty of bass.

Though I don't know if we're talking bass or low end? 'Cause that it got too but not as much :lol:

 

[EtherealWidow]

You are correct, sir. Bass frequencies eat watts. No watts, no bass.

Alright, but WHY do they eat the watts? Why do bass frequencies require more watts than high/mid frequencies.

 

[Jackie]

Our ears are more sensitive to highs and even more sensitive to mids. Extreme highs is something an ear wouldn't want to hear anyway, so if you want to hear the lower frequencies, over the mids/highs, you have to amplify them more.
At least that's how I understand it.

 

[screamingdaisy]

You are correct, sir. Bass frequencies eat watts. No watts, no bass.

Alright, but WHY do they eat the watts? Why do bass frequencies require more watts than high/mid frequencies.

The speaker has to move further to produce them.

 

[MrMarkIII]

You are correct, sir. Bass frequencies eat watts. No watts, no bass.

Alright, but WHY do they eat the watts? Why do bass frequencies require more watts than high/mid frequencies.

The speaker has to move further to produce them.

Yup...
Moving further = greater mechanical energy = greater electrical energy = more watts.

Look at typical bi-amp systems. 600 watts for the woofers. 100 watts for the tweeters.

Lower frequencies have longer wavelengths. It takes more energy to pull a 100 foot rope than a four foot rope.

 

[EtherealWidow]

Ok. That makes a lot of sense then. Therefore, even going direct from a line out with an attenuator in 5 watt mode, there will still be a profound lack of bass, right?

 

[gonzo]

gotta move air, to get real low freq response onto tape/digital/whatever...

you can't add bass from eq at mixdown, and get the same effect.

only speaker excursion causes what you want...

and that takes volume, and watts.
more or less.


it's like, do you wanna cum a little?
or a lot?

 

[EtherealWidow]

Really? You had to bring cum into this? Do you really think that helps anyone understand this at all?

 

[MrMarkIII]

Ok. That makes a lot of sense then. Therefore, even going direct from a line out with an attenuator in 5 watt mode, there will still be a profound lack of bass, right?

Why'nt you say so? Recording is different from hearing it live. An attenuator will strangle the sound even further. With an EL-84 amp, you'll be lucky to get anything BUT mids. EQ if you can, but don't go down to 100hZ unless you want to interfere with the kick drum. Cutting mids can be as effective as boosting highs and lows. But cutting mids will get you lost in the mix quickly.
(Sorry, my post about pulling rope must have had an aphrodisiac effect on some.)

 

[EtherealWidow]

Ok. That makes a lot of sense then. Therefore, even going direct from a line out with an attenuator in 5 watt mode, there will still be a profound lack of bass, right?

Why'nt you say so? Recording is different from hearing it live. An attenuator will strangle the sound even further. With an EL-84 amp, you'll be lucky to get anything BUT mids. EQ if you can, but don't go down to 100hZ unless you want to interfere with the kick drum. Cutting mids can be as effective as boosting highs and lows. But cutting mids will get you lost in the mix quickly.
(Sorry, my post about pulling rope must have had an aphrodisiac effect on some.)

Nah I totally get you. I don't really use the attenuator to record. Sounds like fart even with an IR. Just not my thing really. I just want to know, is it simply the ability of the amp's higher watts pushing the speaker that results in more bass, or is it more of the inner workings of the amp? I guess I'll have to compare wattages going direct in with the attenuator.

 

[Jackie]

is it simply the ability of the amp's higher watts pushing the speaker that results in more bass, or is it more of the inner workings of the amp? I guess I'll have to compare wattages going direct in with the attenuator.

The the amp's inner workings are producing bass, but you have to have something to reproduce that bass - if the speaker ain't moving, there isn't any bass to be heard.

 

[EtherealWidow]

Alright. Did some experimenting with both wattage settings on the Express direct in from the attenuator. Guess it really is just a matter of amp pushing speaker. The power section circuitry itself doesn't have any trouble producing bass. Both sound clips sounded really similar. 5 watts was a bit more grainy. Guess it just inherently has more grit built in. 25 was obviously more dynamic. Other than that, frequency response was almost identical. Checked the frequency analyzer too, since my equipment isn't really state-of-the-art, and they look identical too. Neat. Thanks for helping me learn this, guys!

 

[gonzo]

Really? You had to bring cum into this? Do you really think that helps anyone understand this at all?

WELL, HELL YEAH!!

LOL


i mean, this is something that hopefully you can relate to.


but while you are busy getting hung up on this....


THIS

still applies:

gotta move air, to get real low freq response onto tape/digital/whatever...

you can't add bass from eq at mixdown, and get the same effect.

only speaker excursion causes what you want...

and that takes volume, and watts.

 

[EtherealWidow]

Yeah. And thanks man. No more being hung up on it. I guess the main thing was that I didn't know if it was something inherent in the power section circuitry affecting the frequency response, but really it's just the ability to move air. Again, thanks everyone. Even you, Gonzo. Haha.

 

[talltxguy]

The local GC had a floor model Vox Lil' Night Train & matching cab on clearance. I couldn't help myself. It doesn't even take a real output tube; it uses a 12AU7. I threw a couple of NOS tubes in it, and it sounds pretty **** good. And I won't get into trouble with the wife when playing at night.

It is a better practice tool - in my humble opinion - than a modelling amp, if for no other reason than keeping my playing honest even when messing around late nights.

This amp has no effects loop, but I don't care because Boogies have gotten me away from using effects loops anyway and just enjoy the tone. The bass from this sucker won't rattle anybody's heart, especially with the little 10" speaker and tiny cab. I can see myself trading the cab in for a bigger cab with a 12" speaker.

 

[MarshMesa]

What an interesting thread. I've noticed this myself. My DC 3 with EL 84's doesn't have nearly the bass response of my Marshall with the EL 34's. I don't mind though 'cause it sounds good anyway. Thanks for explaining some of the reasons behind this. I've been a bit scared of 6L6 amps just because they are so bass heavy, which is not my thing. I think the EL 34 is the best bass sound for me - not too bassy but not too weak either.