Live Amp Sound- Need Advice

[boogie1]

Hey, maybe you guys can share some ideas on live sound. I've noticed the past couple gigs that up close my amp sound is good. But then when I walk out to the back of the room the sonic quality sucks. Sometimes it sounds like a blown speaker it's so crappy. How do you guys dial in your amp sound to make it really carry and cut thru? What position do you mike your cabinet, how close and how is it pointed? I think that maybe I'm just not miking myself enough thru the PA for starters. What about presence settings on the amp?

I'm using a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifer and a Genz Benz G-Flex 2x12 cabinet and hoping to dial in my sound before we go on later and get some more tone.

 

[woody777]

What kind of mic are you using? How is it positioned? Are you listening to your guitar through the PA or are you trying to listen to the cab from a distance? Is the sound guy adding EQ at the board?

I like a bright and tight sound... I think that translates best live, but it really depends on what kind of music you take.

 

[NoGlassNoClass]

...maybe I'm just not miking myself enough thru the PA for starters...

That's probably the best place to start. Let the PA do the work filling the room, and use your amp for stage volume. As a rule, I set my amp volume to match the drums. Bassist does the same. We can all hear eachother clearly but not kill the first 5 rows of the crowd, and the people right up front (too close to get the full effect of the PA) still get a relatively decent mix.

The ideal listening position for a 4x12 cab is 10-20 feet away...any closer and the sound waves are not fully developed (may seem bright/harsh/fizzy), much further and you're lost in the mush of a probably-too-loud stage volume (this is where you realize you have way too much bass dialed in for a Recto into a ported cab). Guitar cabs arent really a "long throw" design anyway...think of it as your stage monitor.

As for mic'ing up, an SM-57 straight on axis, about an inch off the grillecloth, and about halfway between the center cap and edge of the speaker cone is a good place to start. Experiment from there turning the mic slightly off axis, and pointed at different parts of the speaker cone until you find your sweet spot. Also try different microphones...the Shure SM-57 is certainly the industry standard, but Sennheiser, Audix, EV, and others make some killer-sounding mics that are rugged enough for live use.

 

[SixVeeSix]

Your amp is too loud. The sound guy doesn't turn it up in the mix because it is already too loud. If you can't get your tone without turning it up then you have too much power, try using a smaller amp and let the PA do the work.

For perspective, I heard Angus Young of AC-DC on Howard Stern and he said 15 watts is almost too much for him anymore. They use in ear monitors and run everything through the PA. By using a lower power amplifier you can turn it up to the sweet spot without blasting the room.

Too many people go to concerts and think that the band actually uses all those stacks. I watched a road crew break down a wall of stacks one time and they were carrying 2 4-12 cabs each by hooking them in the corners with their hands. No speakers or backs, just boxes to look pretty. A Dual Rec with a 2-12 cab is pretty overpowering for anywhere but an outdoor stadium. Even then you are better off with a smaller amp.

I have been thinking about getting a banner made with a huge amp rig on it. I could have some LEDs going and just hang it at the back of the stage and use my Maverick. Even my 35 watts with 1-12 is a bit much so I put it down low to the floor.

 

[fryett67]

Definitely agree that the smaller is better approach is the way to go. Mic your amp through the PA and let the sound man adjust and mix to get the overall sound right. I find that if my sound on stage is good (to my ears) I am more relaxed and enjoy myself during the gig. I don't think that you'll ever get a sound that's good for you on stage and for someone standing at the back of the room. On top of that, once the room fills with people, the sound quality for the audience is going to change anyway - all those bodies absorbing some of the sound frequencies - so what sounded good at the sound check may sound crappy for the gig. That's when the soundman earns his (or her) beer, adjusting the eq to get the sound right again.

Cheers

Andy

 

[jab]

Boogie1: I feel your pain. I notice the exact same thing you're talking about. Amp sounds great on stage, but you get out in front of the mix and it becomes inarticulate and a bit fuzzy through the PA. I sold my Dual Rec primarily over this issue for a Stiletto thinking the tighter amp characterisitcs of Stiletto would fix it. It's better, but still there. Played out this weekend, walked out in front of the mix with my wireless and I still get that same sound and it's bugging the crap out of me. Why does it sound so different in the PA vs. directly out of your cabinet?! Stage volume-wise you can only play as loud as everyone else, so it is what it is, so everyone in the band can hear each other equally. I don't crank unneccesarily, and the let the SM57 mic do the work. I place the mic just off the grill, b/w the cone and edge.

I don't have any answers because I have the same question. Or maybe that's just how tone responds with a mic going through a PA so deal with it. Acoustics however directly in the board always sound clear and tremendous out there. I wonder about the DI boxes instead of using a mic. I wish some tech guru would read this and solve it for us.

 

[Jonberrier]

I noticed the same problem for a while. I've been recording with a Sennheiser e609 close miced on my amp and is sounds really natural (almost like you're standing about 8 feet from the cab). The last gig I played, I convinced the soundman to use my e609 and leave the EQ flat on my channel on the board. That show I sounded great and our other guitarist sounded blah. The said soundman now has a set of e609s. You might want to just try something like a mic change. I don't really care for the way 57s sound on a Mesa.

 

[Living_justice]

The trick is to angle the cabints to the sides, but then again if you like showing off your gear, its a no lol.

 

[jab]

interesting comment from jonberrier. The musician's friend reviews echo what you're saying about that e609. I wonder if it is just the mic? Could always try throwing some more $ down the money pit of tone & see if something comes out of it. Also saw the comment of angling cabs to the sides. Not sure what that means, but I and the other guitarist place our cabs on the side of the stage, facing in directly across the stage so we can everyone in the band can hear it, and let the mic do the work for the crowd. Doesn't seem to change the fact it doesn't sound so good through the pa.