How do you hear yourself on stage???

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jazz5

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Hi, I have a big problem with my mesa dual rectifier (two chanall) sound on stage. I don't know what to do, but I'm almost ashamed to play on stage because I hear myself so strange. The sound I have can be compared to some cheap zoom :( I know that the audience hear my sound better than I but still. I don't know what to do. In a place where we practise I have great sound, but when I come on big stage the sound is not eaven near the one I have in the practise room. What can I do? Any tips? Does anyone have the same problem??
Thanks
jure
 
In rehearsal I'm standing next to the cabinet :S. Live, it depends how big is the stage. I know that the sound in rehearsal won't be the one I'll have on stage but still, I'm allmost ashamed to say that I have mesa, when I go on stage :(
 
Every environment is different. Think of the variables:
+ distance from amp
+ amp height
+ amp tilt
+ what's under the stage?

That' last one is what I find to be the gremlin. Most people rehearse in basements which are are usually the lowest floor and nothing underneath while stages are usually multiple feet from the floor with space under them.

To solve this, here is that I try doing... Keep the amp off the floor at all times.

Another common one with regards to single speaker combos is the directionality of it. Up to 30 degrees either side from the cone seems to be ideal while 30-45 seems to sound very different.
 
Absolutely, It's even a matter of a setting change for me. At home I use the Vintage switch but with a room larger than 100 seats I have to switch to Modern to get more bite and a clearer tone. Now, does that mean I couldn't use the vintage setting? NO!!!, It just means that it's easier to flip one switch to get the tone I need rather than re-adjust Bass/Mid/Treble, which it sounds like you need to do.

Elpelotero said:
practice volumes and stage volumes are different. you need to readjust the settings live
 
Different environment=different tone....readjust your settings....the mesa is a completely new beast when pushed harder....the tone is completely different, which means you'll need new settings. I keep my cranked settings on for practice too, and it works fine!
 
I have a 3 channel dual rec that I play live and experience the same thing.

When I'm at practice, I'm standing right next to my amp, and since the low frequencies spread out more and the higher frequencies come at you more directly in front of the amp, I hear myself differently at practice then on stage. Also, since I'm tall and standing right next to my amp, it sounds completely different when I'm standing next to it at practice

My rule for making eq adjustments to my amp is that I am sitting (or eye level with the speakers) about 8-10 feet directly in front of my amp and playing at the same volume I would live. I NEVER make eq adjustments unless my amp is at the same volume I use live (master at about 11 o'clock). That is the most accurate represenation of how your amp is going to sound live. You would be amazed at how different your amp sounds just by sitting on the floor in front of it, and since that is where the mic is placed when playing live, that's what I need to be hearing for eq adjustments.

Also, I don't have the sound guys run my guitar through my monitor either. Some people do because of the size of their amp or the size of the venue they're playing, but my amp IS my monitor so I know what I am hearing through my amp sounds as close to the same as the audience is hearing through my mic'd cabinet through the PA.
 
Here's another variable that I encountered Saturday night - electricity.

My amp would change volume throughout the night and I'm pretty positive it was due to the changes in voltage flowing from the wall socket. Most live music venues have very crappy power distrobution - even your house will vary a significant amount.
 
Ned, I'll 2nd that...there are times when I hear the most glorious sustain and note articulation from my amp and other days when no matter what I do, the notes die, especially in the upper registers. One might say it's a tube thing but I experienced the same with solid state amps also.

ned said:
Here's another variable that I encountered Saturday night - electricity.

My amp would change volume throughout the night and I'm pretty positive it was due to the changes in voltage flowing from the wall socket. Most live music venues have very crappy power distrobution - even your house will vary a significant amount.
 
Wow! I'm of a differing opinion here! I used to experience bad sound where we rehearsed (nasty room acoustics), though I was'nt always changing settings! I've always adjusted my settings from a mic's stand-point, right in front of the speaker! Additionally, my volume settings did'nt change because I was playing "live"! Part of our regimen was a proper mix! Why would we turn our amps louder than practice when playing live? It always gets me when these bands show up, soundcheck comes, and these guys are ready with they're amps on 11! It's more proper to soundcheck up to level rather than constantly being told to turn down! Sorry, rant mode off! :oops:
 
Not a rant, jbird, that is solid advice. Here is a funny little anecdote...

Most every band I've played in has fallen into the following traps:

WHEN AMPS ARE UNMIC'D they get progressively turned up throughout the night but people fail to turn up the mains for the vocals so by the middle of the second set you can't hear a thing.

WHEN AMPS ARE MIC'D the amps are still get progressively turned up throughout the night but now they are slowly taken out of the house mix so by the middle of the second set the stage is on fire with sound but the those at the back of the room can only hear vocals.
 
Get a speaker stand and tilt the amp pointing directly at your ear on stage in practice and live. Get everone else in the band to do the same. This cuts down on variables and allows you to hear your sound well. Also prevents the need to constantly adjust (raise) volume. Secret to a good sound: quiet stage volume and a good PA, board, and sound man.
 
Sound advice from all !!! What we do is rehearse as if it were a show...same amp placements, settings, relative volumes, EVERYTHING!

Practice =/= Rehearsal....Practice is what you do at home by yourself to write/learn/maintain chops. Rehearsal is just that...perfecting your live show, and that should include all aspects of your show not just your amp tones. Rehearse your set sure, but also things like fast setup/teardown, changing instruments (and other disaster prevention).

Sorry if going OT or ranting...just my .02

Jon
 
OOOOPS guess I did go a bit OT there. After another look at the original post.......

At soundcheck, try to get a good mix between all the amps and drums so you can all hear eachother because 9 times out of ten the monitors are gonna suck. Beyond that, let the PA do the work and let your sound man worry about what the audience hears. If your on-stage mix sounds good (and your amps arent killing the drums!) you will play better, sound better, and have more fun.
 
On stage, I have my guitar ran in to my monitor mix.. but the drummer also got stuck on my monitor mix so I have to hear the Kick and Snare all night long! I usually end up un plugging my monitor after the first set and I started bringing a "slave amp" to point at my head and adjust the volume as I need it. Currently my "slave amp" is a 1970 deluxe, but I'm wanting to get something a little more replacable (if ya know what I mean) like a solid state crate or peavey, or I wouldn't mind having an Atomic amp.

At large gigs, I just have my guitar and my lead singer in my mix (our stage volume is pretty loud).

I also wear ear plugs after the 1st set, and believe it or not.... it helps!! I can hear things more clearly, but I just cant tell what my exact tone is so I have to hope it's the same as it was before the plugs went in.
 
Thank you guys for advice, I'll have sth done about it. Tomorrow I have a gig, the stage will be big and I hope I'll find some sollution. I agree about this rehearsal=live but we have very small room where we practise, I'm standing next to my amp, and the sound I hear is ofcourse not the on I hear on a big stage. usually big bands go to rehearse in a hall with stage and everything, so they can practice they performance as well as get the sound right. we're trying to do that, but can't find place that wouldnt be so expencive.
 
jazz5 said:
Thank you guys for advice, I'll have sth done about it. Tomorrow I have a gig, the stage will be big and I hope I'll find some sollution. I agree about this rehearsal=live but we have very small room where we practise, I'm standing next to my amp, and the sound I hear is ofcourse not the on I hear on a big stage. usually big bands go to rehearse in a hall with stage and everything, so they can practice they performance as well as get the sound right. we're trying to do that, but can't find place that wouldnt be so expencive.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, you and I are in the same boat. Our band has a very small practice space where I am forced to stand right next to my amp and get a very different sound live from what I hear at practice.

If you can, try to get to your gig a little early so you can set up and plug in. Then maybe you will have a little more time to tweak the eq to get it where you like it on stage. I would probably suggest coming down on the treble and maybe adding a little bass and mids, but not having heard your amp that would just be an idea.

Once you find the sound you like on stage, keep it that way even if it dosn't sound quite right in your practice space. I always thought my amp sounded too boomy in our practice space, then I got it on stage and it sounded too harsh and trebbly. It sounds like you're experiencing the same thing. Give that a try and let us know what you come up with.
 
Great thread guys. I can totally relate, and I think most of the advice has been real good. I've been doing the on-stage thing since the early 80s, and let me tell you that things have changed a lot - on a number of different levels.

Almost all bands fall into the volume trap starting out. We've all been there: vocals only in the PA, start out the night with reasonable levels, but by the end of the second set your audience is plastered against the back wall YELLING at each other because it's so loud. Then as you progress and get into rooms with a full bore sound system, the guitarist won't turn his amp down, and the sound guy ends up hating you.

First, let me say that the amp's rehearsal sound should really approximate your live sound in terms of tone, but not volume. To compensate for lower volumes you are inevitably going to have to do a little tweeking - but you should always be in the ballpark on your settings. Boogies are real sensitive, so there shouldn't be a hell of a lot of adjustment required - just subtle changes. And whoever said that every room is different, is absoutely right about that. But don't get too anal about it. Trust your amp.

Here's what I do to hear myself. My band plays in three different types of venues. Oh, and I play through a DC-3. That's 35 watts of screaming EL84 boogie power, kids.

Venue 1. Small room (up to 75 people). For these gigs we don't mic anything but the vocals. My amp sits on the floor - that way I get the most bottom end that I can. Through EXPERIENCE I know what settings I need. Master volume on the amp will rarely go above 4 (not 4 o'clock). The key to good sound in these rooms is to let the drums dictate your overall volume. Then get the guitars etc up to your good levels, and add LOUD vocals on top into the room and back at you from the monitors. Instead of putting my amp directly behind me, I put it off to one side a little, further away from the drummer, as opposed to closer to him, facing straight out. This way I hear it off-center and it's not pumping right into the back of my legs. Unless the rooms starts out empty and fills up to capacity later on, you shouldn't be farting around with your levels once they are set. Trust me, if you have confidence in the way it sounds at the beginning of the night, despite what your ears tell you (aural fatigue), it sounds just as good, if not better, later on when you and your amp are warmed up and relaxing more as you play. Once you can get to the point where you have confidence that you are sounding good, it's a lot easier to play because you are simply not thinking about having to play with your volume etc.

Venue 2. Mid-size room (up to maybe 150 people). For these gigs we will throw a couple of mics on the drums, and rely on our amps as above. Obviously the levels will be boosted somewhat, but what I do is simply run my amp through a 2x12 enclosure instead of the internal 12. This gives my guitar a bigger sound without having to push the amp too hard. Doubling the number of speakers makes the sound bigger and slightly louder. Again, I put the cab behind me and off to the side so that I can hear. Vocals are kept dominant.

Venue 3. Big rooms and out-door gigs. Here is where we mic the whole thing up. When you are micing everything you do not need or want to be loud on stage. If the sound guy is good at his job, he'll give you exactly what you need in your monitors. So be good to him - he'll thank you for it. You don't need to be running your guitar amps on 11 to sound good through a full PA system. It makes it nearly impossible to make the whole band sound good if you are roaring away. I know we all need to drive our tubes to get the best sound, but as a compromise, what I like to do in these situations is either use my combo only, and run it the same way I would run it at a small gig and let the sound guy work with that, or if I feel the need for the BIG sound, I run the extension cab, but position it on stage so that it becomes a side-fill. That way it's not going to bleed into the vocal mics if I need big volume. But the BEST way to have a strong gig with a nice loud full bore PA is to keep your back line volume as low as you can stand it, and let the monitors do their job. Again, if the sound guy is good, you will get the full sound of the band - tailored to what you want to hear, pumping right into your face. It takes some time to get accostomed to the sound coming at you in stead of from behind you, but there's nothing quite as satisfying as hearing a studio-quality sound coming back at you in a live setting. Your ears will be happier at the end of the night, the sound guy will love you, and the audience will hear a well balanced and strong mix. As an added bonus, when you take this approach, if you are recording off the board, you get a great sound. If you are driving your amp full tilt, it will hardly come through in a recording at all because the sound guy has to trim you out of the FOH mix.

Wow - I said a lot. Anyway - that's my input. I've been doing this quite a long time now, and the sound reinforcement gear that's in use today really can make you sound good - if you let it do the work, and the guy who's running it knows what he's doing.
 
G.I.G. said:
Once you find the sound you like on stage, keep it that way even if it dosn't sound quite right in your practice space. I always thought my amp sounded too boomy in our practice space, then I got it on stage and it sounded too harsh and trebbly. It sounds like you're experiencing the same thing. Give that a try and let us know what you come up with.

that's the sound I get on stage :( it's so thin... I'll try sth tomorrow and will let u know,
thanks again
 

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