Dyne with Rivera Rock Crusher

[elvis]

I've been struggling with the fact that the Dyne is crazy loud, and I play it at home 99% of the time.

I finally decided to go with a power attenuator. There are a lot of them out there, so it was difficult to choose. I went "middle of the road" for price and features with the Rock Crusher.

I just got it in the mail, and out of the box it works exactly like it's supposed to. It has a few attenuation steps that I think will work well to set up the right gigging volume. Then it has "studio mode", which I would rename "home mode" It can get the volume all the way down to nothing.

I feel that it did a great job of preserving the Dyne tone down to very low volume. Obviously, at low volume the punch is reduced, but it still sounds great.

Most of the reviews recommend boosting treble when attenuating, and that is definitely required with my setup.

I'm quite happy with it. It gets only mildly warm while playing.

 

[elvis]

Wow - don't stand anywhere near the attenuator with your guitar! It's all high-output speaker-level signals, and no shielding. The guitar picks up lots of noise within a couple feet of the thing. Otherwise, no problems.

 

[Gordybaby]

Hey Elvis are you still liking the rock crusher?

 

[elvis]

Nope. LOVING it :lol:

I get very good tone and response, and the built-in atten levels are exactly what I would have chosen. It can go to zero volume in studio mode (that's the lowest volume setting, and has a knob for continuous volume adjustment). The dynamics suffer at low volume, but that is common to all attenuators. In a way, it starts to feel like playing through a 20/20 at bedroom volumes.

I run the Dyne's master at 10:00, so it's really cooking, and the RC doesn't get very hot.

 

[YellowJacket]

I have always wanted to try an Attenuator but I just don't know if I want to pay the price of admission. $500 is a lot more than I can afford right now. It sounds like it is mighty handy though!

 

[elvis]

YJ, I agree completely. I finally decided that after 30 years of playing, I ought to have proper equipment, and I sucked it up and bought the thing. Most of us managed to buy multiple guitars and multiple amps, so why not other important gear?

As an additional note, now I will be able to adjust volume at practice and gigs without changing levels in the amp.

 

[YellowJacket]

elvis, I am curious. I have done a lot of reading on low volume guitar tone and as far as I can see, much of the frustration with bedroom volumes is because of the limitation of guitar speakers. Guitar speakers not driven hard enough create thin and buzzy tone.

I am curious, does it make a difference to attenuate the 'Dyne with the master at 8:30 or 9:00 vs simply turning down the master? The tone is primarily the preamp saturating so I am curious what the difference would be. As I understand it, the purpose of the Attenuator is to be able to have some 'power amp clip' in the tone as well at 'lower' volumes. Alternatively, one can have a power scaling kit installed which will allow for 'power amp gain' to be dialed in as well as 'preamp gain'. Some people swear by power scaling and swear at attenuators while other swear by attenuators and swear at power scaling.

I also find that to run lower 'output' with a cranked tone, it pays to get a 25 / 30 watt vintage speaker since the speaker will be much more 'open' or 'lively' at lower volumes.

For me, with all my reading I have discovered that my primary issue is the incredible efficiency of guitar speakers. They are LOUD, even with only one watt going through them. I think when I power up my amps I rarely put more than a watt through the speakers. Most often, it is in the range of a quarter of a watt or less, I would think. Whenever I chase low volume tone, I end up getting frustrated and disappointed. I find it to be an incredible waste of money.

I was trying the Mini Recto and the AMP sounds great at low volumes but it sounds limited by the speaker. I'd have to try it with the matching 1 x 12 but the Transatlantic 2 x 12 with a c90 I was using sounded much better with a bit of volume going through it and by that point, it was starting to get loud anyhow.

So ya, just curious what your thoughts are on the Rock Crusher? Is there an appreciable difference with low volume tones with the attenuator engaged vs low volume settings on the master? Think like barely on vs 8:30 on the master and attenuated. I haven't had my 'Dyne' up past 8:30 ever since that was always enough horsepower for gigs with a 2 x 12.

 

[elvis]

There's no question that at very low volume the tone changes. However, it's still very useable. But for reasonable attenuation, I very much prefer the power attenuator to turning down the master. I believe that the power tubes are a major part of the Dyne tone, and I feel the difference.

I like to run the Dyne master at 10:00. The atten lets me do that at any volume. A really good solution might be to use the attenuator as a dummy load and then run the line out into a low power (1-5W) amp with a low power rated speaker, as you recommended. A friend of mine got a RC and runs his 100W Marshall into it as a dummy load, and the line out into a Deluxe Reverb at lower volume. He likes it.

Either way, there will always be a change in tone with an attenuator. What I do like is that I can run in 90W mode at REASONABLE volume (not super loud, but not really bedroom volume either), and get very close to the wide-open tone of the amp. This is great for band practice and gigs for sure, and a few dB less at home still works well. When I need to be at television volume, I lose some of the tone, but at least keep a nice live feel to the amp. At all volume levels I like it much better than lowering the master.

 

[Talus]

Mine just came in the mail about two hours ago. So my thoughts so far.

I primarily bought this to use for silent recording and for that I must say it works wonders. While it will never beat putting a mic on a cranked amp, it took nothing more than a cabinet from guitar rig to sound better than anything I've ever recorded quietly at home. This alone is definitely worth the price of admission.

As for the attention itself it's absolutely fabulous if you want to play at a reasonably quiet volume, all the way down to a volume that's equal the the volume of an electric guitar played acoustically.

At moderate to loud home volumes it's kind of a trade off if you were to adjust the master so the attenuation on/off volume was unison then you get a little less oomph with it turned on, but it's also smoother and slightly less grainy. The real difference is how it feels to play. I've always felt that despite the fairly loose tone of the amp it's always felt a little tight and constrained. With this it feels much more open.

Will be taking it to a gig this weekend, really looking forwards to hearing what kind of effect it will have when the speakers are actually pushing some air.

 

[YellowJacket]

Perhaps an attenuated signal would be better served by a 1 x 12 cab loaded with a less stiff guitar speaker than a v30 or c90. I hear a G12H 30 or a Greenback will start to 'warm up' at much lower volumes. My only problem with Greenbacks is that they can get muddy when paired with an Electra Dyne. (Not so much with a Dual Rectifier)

For attenuation, I'm mostly interested in getting my Electric Guitar at a level that is maybe equal to my cello or maybe as low as my acoustic guitar. The advantage of an attenuated signal is that I can use it with an Electra Dyne and my Dual Rectifier. If I sell my Dual and get a mini, then I can only use the mini for low volume stuff. Definitely curious about a G12H 30 in a 1 x 12 cab right now!

The Dual vs Mini is a totally different issue. Basically, the Dual has a wide and phat and POWERFUL crunch that the Mini can't touch. It gets close but it doesn't keep up as a dedicated distortion / rhythm amp. Where the mini excels is with its flexibility and options. The clean is magical (not as good as the 'Dyne though) and the high gain channel works equally well for rhythm and solos. It has such a great FEEL about it. This amp is FAST like a Mazda Miata while the Dual is a Viper. (It has so much Horsepower that it can result in the driver's destruction)

 

[YellowJacket]

OK, after some space I have had some time to play around with my gear today.

Thoughts.

Dual Rectifier is most likely staying. It really can get those low volume tones fairly well, even if they are a bit buzzy. This was at 100watts. I'll have to pull tubes and turn the variac on spongy and I have a feeling I can get good tone at even lower volumes. It isn't AS quiet as the Mini, but it is comparable and it sounds sooo much bigger. Great high gain head.

Electra Dyne. LOUD! I must have been getting half deaf because I was surprised how much horsepower it has. Given how much volume is needed to get the amp responding correctly, I can totally see how people would use an attenuator. I don't have any gear funds but in the event things change, I think an attenuator would be first on my list. At least for now... I need to pop a v30 back in that 1 x 12 cab of mine and see if this mitigates the problem somewhat. 'Dyne is brilliant for even low volume rehearsals but man, what a pig!

 

[elvis]

Yeah, the Dyne is CRAZY loud. Especially if you want to push the power stage.

It is my understanding that much of the Rectifier tone is dominated by the preamp, so I would expect it to still sound pretty good with the Master turned down. I'm definitely thinking about getting a DR to pair with my Dyne. I was thinking more of a mini until I read this review. Thanks, YJ.

 

[YellowJacket]

The mini sounds and plays awesome. It is very portable and has that EL-84 charm. It would be great for a grab and go amp and it DOES nail the recto tone. Things just get dicey if you really want the HUGE sound of a large displacement head. I don't know that ANY Dual will sound better than the mini, they just sound different. My own PERSONAL opinion is that I like the tone of my old 2 channel. It is a decidedly different flavour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeAhLS68f3k

That is a fairly good tone although it is more scooped than I would dial in. For your purposes, I'd suggest to audition both. Now you have the attenuator, you'll need to determine if you want a more warm clean and more portability / bedroom usability or if you want the girth of tone that a Dual Recto will offer. The Mini is tighter and has a better solo tone. The 2 Channel manages rhythm best. I prefer the vintage high gain channel hands down on my Dual. It does a good solo / lead tone with the gain set a bit higher and I can turn down the volume on my guitar for rhythm.

Here is a vid comparing the Recto Reborn against the Mini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXY53F03-lk

Keep in mind the Reborn Rectos are brighter, clearer, more articulate, and tighter. More METAL and less grunge. This will give you a really good idea of what the Mini does. In my experience, it gets heavier and more scooped sounding through a 4 x 12 but ya, you'll hear how it has more mids compared to its big brother.

 

[elvis]

YJ, would you be willing to try the mini through your Dyne power stage via the FX loop? I'm very curious how that might sound compared to the Dual. I'm not a big fan or EL84s, and that's how I might run the mini.

 

[YellowJacket]

Hmm, well I don't actually own a mini... I was trying them at music stores and trying to decide if I wanted that or if I wanted to keep my high gain heads. Ultimately, I decided against getting one for now, and I'm thinking about an attenuator 'someday'.

I could try the Recto preamp through the power stage of the 'Dyne' but I doubt it is the same thing. Why not pick up a 2 channel Dual USED for like $1000? Just a thought. They do run a bit quieter than the Electra Dyne and they sound huge!

 

[elvis]

That's exactly where I'm at - Used Dual vs. Mini. Both about the same $. Dual very heavy and bulky, but probably better tone.

Hmmmmmmmmmm

 

[YellowJacket]

I wouldn't say 'better' tone for the Dual, but I would say BIGGER! I personally like the old blackface heads like mine, which is a Rev F. They have that 'classic' 90s recto tone while the new ones are really updated. FWIW, I elected to keep my Dual for the time being. Just like it more.

Get a Dual if you want the size (Smaller and lighter than an Electra Dyne), bulk, and tone of a large displacement head. Nothing else sounds as huge, angry, and as pant flapping as this beast through a 4 x 12.

Get the Mini if you want something compact that sounds great at LOOOWW volumes and has an immense tone for its size.

+s for the mini: Small size, diverse tonal pallete. Sounds great at low volumes. Has a unique and fun feel as well as tones that work well for rhythm AND lead playing.
-s Doesn't sound quite as big as a Dual. Doesn't have the sheer balls / headroom / or aggression of the larger head.

+s for a Dual. LOUD! The old 2 channels are really a signature tone. Rev Fs and Gs are both awesome. The blackface format is great if you can find it. Old 3 channels are a little more modern while the Reborn version has a recto voice for every style.

-s Needs a bit of power to get a good tone, but not as much as an Electra Dyne. Sounds AMAZING cranked but when are you ever going to crank it? Clean tones are alright except for the Reborn, which has an awesome clean. Is BIG.

Ultimately, you have to try them both and see. The "FEEL" on a Dual is so THICK AND CHUNKY while the Mini is 'elastic' and 'responsive'. They're both fun to play in their own way.

 

[elvis]

The more you write about it, the more I want a dual.

 

[YellowJacket]

This guy has a Dual that is the same cosmetics / circuit board as mine. (rev F) Suuch a cool looking and sounding head!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeAhLS68f3k

I personally would run that head through this cab:
http://millsacoustics.com/212B.html

Load that sh!t with a Mesa v30 and a Mesa c90. That is basically my rig while running a Les Paul with Bare Knuckle pickups. It sounds so huge!!

Keep in mind that each iteration of recto tones sounds slightly different from the 'Early Duals (Rev C - F), the Rev G, the first iteration of the 3 channel heads, as well as the Reborn. Of course, the Road King, Roadster, Single Rec, Triple, etc all have their own thing going. Maybe consider tracking down a Dual Recto Tremoverb? These are the best kept secret of the 2 channel heads. Better clean tone, blues mode, and both of the high gain channels of all the other 2 channel heads.

 

[elvis]

Thanks for the clip - that's great! I definitely want THAT.

:twisted: