Comprehensive "options for low volume playing" thread.

[YellowJacket]

OK. This is a thread for brainstorming. What is the best way to remove a few ponies from an Electra Dyne without subjecting it to a knife, a bomb, or an amp tech?

This is a thread to brainstorm for ways to come over what I feel is the only scientific and demonstratable weakness of the Electradyne: The VOLUME!

Attenuators: Which are the best and why?

Low Threshold of Distortion tubes: Some preamp / power amp tubes break up earlier (at lower volumes) than others. Has anyone thought of designing a special tube cocktail specifically for the 'Dyne? The fact that the clean and Vintage lo / hi modes have different circuits means that technically, one could put 'low threshold breakup' preamp tubes only in the preamp spots that power the Vintage Lo and Hi circuits which would lower the headroom of these modes relative to the clean mode. This tweak might help out someone like Jeff P (who needs more clean volume relative to Vintage Lo and Hi) immensely.
Lower breakup in the power section would hopefully also help achieve overdriven tones at more usable volumes.
(I'm currently curious about EL-34s, since I bet they'd add some amazing attitude to the amp)

Variable Efficiency Speakers: I know this is new but the Eminence FDM technology and the FLuxtone speakers both look really promising. Once this technology becomes more common, I think it could revolutionize the guitar amp.

Preamp Pedals, Boost Pedals, Dirt Pedals, etc: Does anyone simply use a dirt pedal to get usable crunch tones for when the Master is almost off? Does this work well? For instance, can I have the clean mode at bedroom tone and then get a wicked crunch with the Xotic BB Preamp??

 

[MrMarkIII]

No tube cocktail will reduce loudness as much as adjusting the level of the gain controls and master volume. That's what they're for - crunch at low volumes.
Or use an attenuator. Nothing else will allow both power tube clipping and low volume.

 

[elvis]

Based on JJ's measurements, the power is pretty low in class A mode (18W). I think that's workable. Maybe adding some really low-threshold breakup power tubes to the class A sockets? Running 16 Ohm speakers would also cut power in this mode. I think a 6V6 mod of some sort would be cool for this amp.

 

[YellowJacket]

Elvis, how's the Recto 2 x 12 treating you. Did you try it with the Electra DYne. I heard they go WELL together!!!

No tube cocktail will reduce loudness as much as adjusting the level of the gain controls and master volume. That's what they're for - crunch at low volumes.
Or use an attenuator. Nothing else will allow both power tube clipping and low volume.

Dude, don't assume I know nothing. I've been chasing this dragon for years. I am curious if using preamp and power tubes that clip earlier will lower the onset of clipping. You're talking to a guy who likes the tone of the preamp from the Electra Dyne. (master at 8 - 8:30 sounds great but the amp is already screaming loud) I usually never have the master past 9:00 anyway. For my tastes, loads of power tube overdrive is too loose and muddy for my purposes anyhow.

I've read up on attenuators and truthfully, I'm not sold. FDM or other variable efficiency speakers seems like the most promising solution but I don't want to pay huge $$$s for a brand new technology.

So, shall we discuss dirt boxes? Any suggestions.

 

[elvis]

Just play, and ignore the pleas from the neighbors...

 

[J.J]

6V6 tubes are not the answer, at least by them selves. To get the ED to the tone you want, without the ear bleed, you need to loose at least 10 dB. 15dB would be better.

I think we all know what the options and down falls are. A combined approach may help.

I use a 15" Fane driver sometimes. I don't know the exact figure is but it could not be more than 90dB/watt. I can crank my ED into it during the day time and not bother anyone (its sounds great too !). At night its a bit to much for the sleeping kids. I also use a 16 Ohm greenback which allows for higher master settings, but is still usually a bit to loud. I have yet to try it with the ED set to 4Ohms, which could be good.

Some of the Jensen speakers are around 95dB/watt. There are bound to be other speakers around with way less than 100dB/watt.

My Vox AC4 has a built in attenuator and it is not a bad design. It has some high freq compensation built in. In the 1 watt mode it gives a 6 Db attenuation and still sounds decent, but still to loud at home.

Take the early breakup tubes, a low output speaker and an attenuator set for 3 or 4dB cut and suddenly you have taken 10dB out and tone should still be good.

Having said all that, if I really was on a bedroom tone mission I would make an ISO cab with mic and re-amp with the output going to a decent studio monitor. The tone should be about a good as your ability is to record your amp and you can use whatever speaker(s) you like.

 

[YellowJacket]

The Jensens sounds like the best option as far as I have heard. My problem is that I really have no experience with them and I am definitely a Celestion guy. It would be a step of 'faith' with a student budget.

For sure, the combined approach is always the most effective. Perhaps a THD Hot Plate would be a great start. When my ED 27" 1 x 12 cab comes in, perhaps I should spring for an attenuator and run the ED at 4 ohms into the 8 ohm cab.

Preamp tubes that break up earlier would be great in the Vintage Lo and Hi circuit only. This would increase gain at lower volumes and the clean channel can be adjusted with the clean trim pot.

Any thoughts on dirt pedals for good crunch tones? The Xotic BB Pre looks really awesome.

 

[JOEY B.]

I feel like I have walked 5 miles in your shoes. Although my "loud" comes in at about Master 10:00 in the 45 watt mode. I tried the THD attenuator approach, with EL-34's to get the gain channels smokin'. What I ended up with was a great sounding blue and red channel, and a clean channel that wasn't so clean. 6L6's will not cure this problem, as I have tried it both ways.

When it all shook out, I ended up selling the ED, and buying a Royal Atlantic head. The indepenent channel attenuators and channel controls helped to solve the volume issues.

 

[YellowJacket]

Well, 'needing' the master at 10 O'Clock for 'your' sound must have been very problematic. Once the thing is up above 8:00 I am happy. I have plenty of clean headroom. There must be a way to knock off a little bit of volume for practicing and whatnot!! (for louder stuff, it is all 90 watts)

 

[elvis]

BTW, I do use the BB Pre to get a decent crunch at really low volume. It's OK, but not the same as running the amp wide open. I would call it "useable".

 

[YellowJacket]

How does it compare to the amp with the master at 8:00 and the volume at 2:00??

**curious**

I may have to try an attenuator one of these days! A used THD Hotplate would be a safe bet because I could flip it and make my investment back should I decide I don't like the thing.

 

[elvis]

Well, to me the amp has a "living, breathing" sort of sound. I run master at 10:00. If I run the master lower to get low volume, or if I use the attenuator to get VERY low volume (low enough so my kids can watch TV in the next room), then that life, and a lot of the breakup that goes with it, disappears. At that point, the BBPre sounds a lot more like the amp would at higher volume, but with a bit less of that "living" character.

The way I have my BBPre set up, it is almost exactly the same tone as V LO, so the tone is great. It just can't reproduce the amp's dynamics/transient response. It's really pretty good for very low volume, just not the same as the fire-breathing coffee-swilling jumpy response that I love about the Dyne.

On another note, I emailed a tube dealer last night to check into the possibility of getting a low-gain 6L6 that was more like a 6V6. He was pessimistic about the possibility. His comment was that the cure for high-volume amps is a low-volume amp. In a way that is true, but you really have to go to like 1W to get the volume we are looking for. Since my Attenuator can also be a dummy load, I am thinking about building a 1W tube power amp to see what would happen if I drove it with the Dyne.

 

[YellowJacket]

The living breathing character of the Electra Dyne is what makes it so seductive.

I am not sure that I'd think of the Electra Dyne as being a large amp when running at "45 watts" considering what JJ said about the output. 18watts clean and 30watts maxed puts it in the same power category as a Vox AC30. I read the manual and it did indeed say that in '45 watt mode', it is running with a reduced bias in 'CLASS A' operation. We could deliberate what 'Class A' actually means but it suffices to say that the Electra Dyne in 45watt mode is not so efficient.

Of course, if we start talking about 0.5 watt amps, then the Electra Dyne is big. It just isn't great as a 'practice amp', but it is perfectly fine for pretty much any gig.

Now, running with 90watts simul-class power is definitely a 'BIG AMP' tone and feel. 70watts clean and 100watts distorted is not 'THAT' much louder but it is definitely Dual Rectifier territory!

The Xotic BB Pre sounds like an option but I'm hesitant to part with any funds yet. I really want to try the 'Dyne' with the 1 x 12 that is on order.

As for attenuators, I'd be curios to set the attenuator to -8db, turn the master to 0, and then slowly open it up until I get a tone I am happy with. I wonder if this would be quieter than the tone I would dial in without an attenuator?

I like the sound of the preamp. I also like the tone of the power amp, but at that point, it is an entirely different amp. Right now my settings are with the master about 8:00, presence at 1:30, bass at 10:30, mids at 12:30, Treble at 12:15, and volume at 1:30. I like the dynamic cleans, the crunchy blues / rock tones, and the high gain crunch I get with these settings. I also realize I am really hair splitting with volume, but this is still loud. I still have to wear ear plugs to practice because my studio is so small. At a gig, I would have to turn up. In a large carpeted room, it would be completely fine.

 

[elvis]

The Killer Ant uses a 12AX7 as a power tube :twisted:

Too bad it doesn't have a line in...

 

[ryjan]

Dude, you pretty much bought a Humvee and are asking how to get 80 miles per gallon out of it.
If you have to have clip at tv volumes then you need to get a 5 watt amp or a modeler.

 

[elvis]

I CAN get 80MPG out of it, if I use batteries, a smaller engine and regenerative braking...

As much as it seems obvious that a different amp for practice is the way to go, I would argue that I would rather practice at home with my gigging amp, so that I am used to it when I am at a gig. Nothing worse than having to relearn which button to press, or what to expect from the different modes, at the gig. Familiarity is king.

In this case, I'm going for the smaller engine (power stage) as an alternative to the Simulclass monster. I think it could work, assuming that the 1W power stage doesn't completely suck. Only one way to find out...

 

[ryjan]

I agree with familiarity but after choking it down to that low of volume with mods, tubes, and attenuaters you aren't really playing the same amp. I always just turned it down and dealt with less than stellar tone when I had to practice at low volumes (which is pretty rare :twisted: ) If you play at low volume 90-100% of the time then why would you need an amp that is designed to be played LOUD?
This is just what I'd do so take my opinion for what you paid for it. :wink: I think he'd be money ahead and a lot happier with a second amp. And who doesn't like buying another amp? :lol:

 

[elvis]

All this talk of NEED...

Since when is it about NEED? :lol:

Nothing better than needless volume. :twisted:

 

[J.J]

Dude, you pretty much bought a Humvee and are asking how to get 80 miles per gallon out of it.
If you have to have clip at tv volumes then you need to get a 5 watt amp or a modeler.

Even 5 watts if way to much is you need to push it to get "your tone". 5 Watts with a V30 is going to be more than 106dB @1Meter.

My Vox AC4 set at one watt is still a bit to loud for my family. The Blackstar HT-1 though would be fine as it has a low output speaker.

The idea if running the ED into a full load and then taking the slave out sounds like its worth doing.

 

[YellowJacket]

Here's the thing. A 'master volume' amp like the Electra Dyne probably doesn't put out more than one watt with the master at 8:00. The way I play, the preamp generates the tone and the power section amplifies it.

The limiting factor is really the speakers moreso than the amp itself. With 97db / watt / metre to 100 db / watt / metre efficiency, you're getting tonnes of volume as the speaker milks the amps signal for all it's worth.
Reducing a speaker's efficiency by 10db is the equivalent of cutting down the amp's power tenfold. Like I said, I am keeping a curious eye on these variable efficiency speakers. It is about time someone came up with an innovation like this. I'd be much more inclined to get on board with it when it starts to take off and the prices drop. In my opinion, variable efficiency speakers should be a standard option with every amp. It would make any sort of amp much more useable.

:lol: :lol: Laughing at 'simulclass monster'.

The Humvee version of a guitar amp is a freaking halfstack! An Electra Dyne at 90 watts through a Stiletto 4 x 12 is NUTS! No thanks!

For now, I'm waiting for my 1 x 12 to arrive. I think that might sound better than a 2 x 12 for low volumes since the speaker will move more. It isn't like I crank the amp. I'm just in a small room and I turn it on just enough that it starts feeling organic.