Building a 5F1 (OT question)

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EtherealWidow

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So I'm thinking about building a modded 5F1, but I don't want to pay $500 for an entire kit, nor $350 for a stripped down one. So I'd rather just buy pieces and parts and make the thing from scratch with the parts I need. The trouble is, I don't know a whole ton about electrical components. I don't want the original output transformer that would come with the Champ kit. I need an 8 ohm tap. I found a bunch of transformers online, but how do I know which are compatible? I know I'll need like 5 watts, but other than the physical limitations of the chassis, would it be ill-advised to go over-sized? Also, some have different amounts of wires coming out of them, like, 4 wires vs 12 ish. How would you even make that work? A lot of the time they're colored differently too, but I'm not terribly worried as long as the OT comes with a diagram as to what is what. Any help is appreciated. Especially from you, 94Tremoverb. You seem like you'd know this stuff.
 
You should probably stick fairly close to the original size, or it won't sound like a 5F1 - a bigger transformer has wider bandwidth (more bass and treble, basically) as well as more power handling capability. The impedance ratios will be different too since you can't actually get much more power from one 6V6, so any larger one will likely be different (designed for different tubes)

A single-ended, single impedance output transformer only needs four wires, so any more and it has stuff you don't need like multiple impedance taps, push-pull operation or Ultra-Linear taps. At best this is just unnecessary and confusing, at worst you're paying more for stuff you don't need and will have to do more work to keep safe (you can't just snip them and leave them unconnected, at the very least you need to heatshrink them over). You should be able to get a simple "6V6" or "EL84" (the primary impedance is very similar so it probably doesn't matter much) single-ended transformer fairly easily.

Also remember that you will need to increase the value of the feedback loop resistor slightly to compensate for the 8-ohm output. Although Marshall didn't when they copied the Bassman to make the JTM-45! (2 ohms for the Bassman, 16 for the JTM, which means the JTM has way more negative feedback, and is a big factor in why they don't sound the same.)
 
Ah alright. I knew you'd come to my rescue! I know that the OT that tube depot supplies with their kit has an 8 ohm tap and I looked through all the schems they provided and theirs no mention of bulking up the negative feedback resistor. It's normally 22k. Besides, I was planning on taking that resistor out and subbing it for a 25k pot so it could be a method of gain control. I really don't care about a sound that's true to the original either. I'm already planning on putting lower value caps in C1 and C2 (I've heard it tightens it up a bit), bulking up the filter caps (for use with a solid state rectifier), and building a small adapter to use EL84's with it. I guess I'll just stick with a smaller OT then. Besides, the one I found is one that Mojotone has surplus. Selling for $11. Thank you!
 
Ah. And a question about the whole EL84 adapter thing. Being that it's cathode baised, would the adapter need to be anything other than a simple pin adapter?
 
It's difficult to do it that way round because the EL84 needs a *lower* value of cathode resistor than the 6V6 - if you put an adaptor in the socket, the two resistors are then in series and the value must always be higher. So you need to make some means of grounding the EL84 socket directly, to bypass the 6V6 cathode resistor and use only the EL84 one. If you're building the amp from scratch, actually the easiest way to do it is to fit *two* power tube sockets, one for each type. Each can then be fitted with the right components, and all you need to do is put in whichever power tube you want to use.

Use a 22K, 50K or even 100K pot, in series with the 22K resistor, for the NFB - instead of replacing it - that will give you values a lot higher than the original (you're likely to want less feedback, rather than more), and you want to limit the low end of the range. An 8-ohm OT produces 1.4 times as much output voltage compared to a 4-ohm one, so you do definitely want a slightly higher resistor value anyway (regardless that it's not mentioned...). If you do actually want more feedback, reduce the resistor value to 1K, but don't do away with it altogether.
 
Congratulations on taking on this project! Just a couple things to add to some great posts by 94tremoverb...

1) This design has huge potential for easily tweaking to get some personally desired amp behaviors/capabilities/wattage/tones. You might or might not want to stick super close to the original design. Best to start as close to "stock" in the original build, then take it to where you want if you want once the thing is up and running well, one change at a time. Since the parts count is low you can use some more spendy, top end quality parts if you want and still not go broke.

2) My personally done up Frank-en-champ has a huge OT, as well as a higher current capacity PT and I really like the girth and punch that has resulted in the tone, as well as the harmonic detail. I changed mine out for the bigger ones after I built/tweaked mine as an ongoing "mad scientist" project and I never looked back. Am not stuck with running 6v6's anymore, it can handle other octal power tubes as desired for where I am playing it. Learned a lot from those experiments.
 
Thanks, you two for the great responses!

94Tremoverb: The THD Yellow Jacket Uni adapter has no circuitry inside, although it does have a little wire coming off of it that you're supposed to screw in with one of the screws on the tube socket to ground it. Could I just build something like that? I only ask because the chassis of the 5F1 is small, as you are totally aware of. If I'm totally missing the point just let me know. And why would I want to put a pot in series with the 22k NFB resistor? The manual that tubedepot hands out said to do the same thing, but I might just want a fair amount of distortion. Could I just take the 22k resistor out and replace it with the 100k pot? Why would I need to leave the pot in? I guess I could always do it your way and then just simply take out the resistor at a later date if need be.

212MavGuy: Would you say that the punch and harmonic detail is due to the OT and the tube swapping capabilities are more due to the PT? Could the harmonic detail also be accredited to the PT? Would I need a bigger PT to run 6L6's or 5881's? The manual that tubedepot hands out says that all you need is a solid state rectifier, and for the solid state recto you should bulk up the filter caps.

Thanks again! You two have both helped me out plenty in the past. Looking forward to the responses. Also, where do you two learn all this stuff? Is there a particular site I should be looking at? Is there an amp tech in the family? How do you people learn all this crap?
 
EtherealWidow said:
94Tremoverb: The THD Yellow Jacket Uni adapter has no circuitry inside, although it does have a little wire coming off of it that you're supposed to screw in with one of the screws on the tube socket to ground it. Could I just build something like that?
Yes - it still must have at least one resistor inside though, even if it's wired in parallel with the amp's cathode resistor (to ground via the extra wire) to bring the value down.

And why would I want to put a pot in series with the 22k NFB resistor? The manual that tubedepot hands out said to do the same thing, but I might just want a fair amount of distortion. Could I just take the 22k resistor out and replace it with the 100k pot? Why would I need to leave the pot in? I guess I could always do it your way and then just simply take out the resistor at a later date if need be.
You need to keep the resistor in series because otherwise you can reduce the total value to zero, which would basically send the whole output voltage back to the preamp - I'm not sure it would actually blow anything but it certainly wouldn't sound good. You need to keep a minimum resistance there - I suggested 1K, although in practice you may want more than that for tone, but 1K should be enough for safety. You get more gain by *increasing* the resistance, not decreasing it - hence reducing the amount of signal sent through - it's *negative* feedback, so the more there is, the lower the overall gain. Even 100K may not be enough to effectively remove the feedback, so you could fit a switch too. Going to an even higher pot value would most likely make the taper too steep (most of the useful range crammed into a small part of the turn).

Also, where do you two learn all this stuff? Is there a particular site I should be looking at? Is there an amp tech in the family? How do you people learn all this crap?
Being a teenage electronics geek, followed by electronic engineering at college, then 25 years of repair work, interest and constant tinkering! It's not too difficult though, especially nowadays with the internet. Like 212Mavguy said, the 5F1 is a very good place to start because it's so simple.
 
No friggin way. You get MORE distortion by increasing the resistance? I saw a mod for a Champ 600 reissue and the guy said to take out the negative feedback resistor completely! Was he just some kind of tard? He seemed enough like he knew what he was talking about. Maybe I'm the tard spouting incorrect info. http://www.300guitars.com/articles/hot-rodding-the-new-fender-champion-600/ It's step #6. Another question about the circuitry, the low input is the one with the resistor on it right?
 
Alright. I just read what negative feedback distortion actually is. It would make sense that more resistance=more gain because then LESS of the inverted signal would be fed back, resulting in a dirtier, more raw tone, correct? And I'm not so sure about this guy's credibility now. I just read a different article about the P.I. tube and he says that Class A has more odd-order harmonics than Class AB. That Class AB cancels out a lot of odd-order harmonics leaving mostly even-order ones. This is contrary to what I've heard most other people say. Am I wrong? Is he?
 
EtherealWidow said:
You get MORE distortion by increasing the resistance? I saw a mod for a Champ 600 reissue and the guy said to take out the negative feedback resistor completely!
Correct. Removing the resistor completely is equivalent to *infinite* resistance, not zero!

EtherealWidow said:
It would make sense that more resistance=more gain because then LESS of the inverted signal would be fed back, resulting in a dirtier, more raw tone, correct?
Yes.

I just read a different article about the P.I. tube and he says that Class A has more odd-order harmonics than Class AB. That Class AB cancels out a lot of odd-order harmonics leaving mostly even-order ones. This is contrary to what I've heard most other people say. Am I wrong? Is he?
The important difference is between single-ended and push-pull, not between Class A and Class AB. Push-pull (whether Class AB or Class A, although good luck finding a true Class A guitar amp) cancels *even* harmonics generated by the power stage - although not those generated by earlier distortion. Neither actually has *more* odd harmonics - it's that push-pull has *less* even ones.
 
I've run Champ type amps with and without negative feedback resistors. Fender built them both ways. I prefer a Champ without it.

Either way, it won't hurt the amp. Try it both ways (as well as with a pot) and see how you like it best.
 
94Tremoverb said:
EtherealWidow said:
You get MORE distortion by increasing the resistance? I saw a mod for a Champ 600 reissue and the guy said to take out the negative feedback resistor completely!
Correct. Removing the resistor completely is equivalent to *infinite* resistance, not zero!

EtherealWidow said:
It would make sense that more resistance=more gain because then LESS of the inverted signal would be fed back, resulting in a dirtier, more raw tone, correct?
Yes.

I just read a different article about the P.I. tube and he says that Class A has more odd-order harmonics than Class AB. That Class AB cancels out a lot of odd-order harmonics leaving mostly even-order ones. This is contrary to what I've heard most other people say. Am I wrong? Is he?
The important difference is between single-ended and push-pull, not between Class A and Class AB. Push-pull (whether Class AB or Class A, although good luck finding a true Class A guitar amp) cancels *even* harmonics generated by the power stage - although not those generated by earlier distortion. Neither actually has *more* odd harmonics - it's that push-pull has *less* even ones.
Ah right. Pushpull has crossover distortion. Too many people, myself included, talk like class a is synonymous with single ended.
 
EtherealWidow said:
Ah right. Pushpull has crossover distortion. Too many people, myself included, talk like class a is synonymous with single ended.
No, push-pull does not inherently have crossover distortion! Class A push-pull has none, and Class AB should not have any (if correctly biased), at least until the power stage goes into clipping. You can definitely have true Class A push-pull though - it's just that you almost never find it in a guitar amp, no matter who says theirs is...

It's even a little debatable whether most guitar single-ended designs (including the 5F1) can really be considered Class A, because they are usually biased so far off the correct operating point that they actually behave more like half a Class AB amp. But don't worry about it - Class A is nonsense for guitar amps anyway because the whole point of it is to *reduce* distortion, and it only applies to an unclipped waveform. Since when would you ever want that in a guitar amp?! :)
 
No friggin way. Even the 5F1 isn't TRUE class A?! You're blowing my mind right here. I know we swapped messages about the Express thing with the class A, but I figured at least a classic Fender amp would be true class A! So, I guess there's "Guitar amp class A" and then there's "Hifi class A." Good to know. So does class B have crossover distortion? I know most guitar amps don't really use class B, if any guitar amps, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around all this.
 
It's best to just forget about the whole Class A thing. It's become used as a marketing tool and is essentially meaningless for guitar amps - firstly because almost none qualify (especially not the one that gave rise to the whole hype about it in the first place probably, the Vox AC30), secondly because the definition applies strictly to *un*distorted sounds, and thirdly because the whole point of Class A is to *reduce* distortion ('harmonic' distortion, not clipping - basically any alteration of the waveform). Apart from the fact the "Class A" sound like it means "best", there is no reason to even use it in anything related to a guitar amp.

The definition of Class A (if you still want to know) is that the amplified waveform must be conducted by all the amplifying devices throughout the whole 360º cycle of the wave cycle at the maximum undistorted output signal. This means that by some parts of the definition all single-ended amps are Class A, because up to the point one side or the other of the waveform clips, that is true and the maximum undistorted signal stops there. The problem is that most SE guitar amps are biased so far off the correct operating point to achieve an equal swing between clipping at each end of the waveform that this can't really be considered the maximum signal, and most SE amps don't achieve anything like their rated power output at this point. In fact, the waveform is much more like that of an inverted Class AB amp, cut off for some (less than half) of the wave cycle. Class AB amps cut off at the bottom end (zero current) end, whereas most SE guitar amps are biased far too hot and cut off at the forward end, but the result is roughly the same - the current draw changes drastically as the amp goes into clipping on one side of the waveform... although in a push-pull Class AB amp the current increases, whereas in a hot-biased SE it actually *decreases*.

One reason Class A is useful for hi-fi is that by having all the devices conducting all the time, the total current draw is therefore constant - this means that there is no change in the current supplied by the power supply, so even though it has internal resistance, no sag is caused, and no harmonic distortion of the waveform due to that. But one of the desirable characteristics of guitar amps is the sag and dynamic response when the power supply is heavily loaded! Which is why tube rectifiers are still popular... but in a true Class A amp, there is no difference between tube and solid state rectifiers (as long as the final output voltage is the same). Hence Class A would actually be counterproductive in a guitar amp. In fact, the characteristic compression and "bloom" of so-called Class A amps is very specifically because they are Class AB, and *not* Class A - this is what causes the current to vary. And usually because they are cathode-biased, hence the bias voltage is generated by the signal current and self-modulates - cathode-bias is also often confused with Class A, whereas in fact the two are not related... you can have a fixed-bias Class A amp too, as well as cathode-biased Class AB, and in fact it's *easier* to make a true Class A amp using fixed bias (because the operating point can be accurately fixed!).

Really, basing any conclusions about a guitar amp on its operating class will be at best irrelevant and at worst will give directly opposite results to what is desirable. What really matters is how the current changes and affects the power supply voltage and/or bias voltage as the power output goes up and especially as it clips.

So - if you're not totally lost! :) - is a 5F1 Class A? When running strictly clean, yes (although not well-designed for it, the bias is completely wrong). When running distorted, no - not by any part of the definition. And why would you want a 5F1 only to play clean?!


Class B (where the waveform is cut off for half the cycle) can't really be used for audio amps because it always generates fairly heavy crossover distortion, but some high-power guitar amps running at the 'other end' of Class AB from Class A do come close - old MusicMan amps for example.
 
Alright. I think I get the main point of it. There is pretty much no true class a guitar amp. If there were, it would be the most boring, plain, sterile, uninspiring piece of crap waste of money ever produced. I had no idea the thread was going to be this informative when I started it. I have another question though!

I want to buy a cheap cheap chassis for the 5F1. The ones with all the holes predrilled, that are labeled, and have the mounting stuff for the PCB are about $75. I found other ones for $25, but there's no holes drilled for the OT, knobs, pilot light, tubes, etc. Do you know where I could find a layout to drill all the holes?

Also, how would I wire up the pilot light like that of a THD amp? That is to say, have the light's intensity vary by the strength of the input signal.
 
EtherealWidow said:
Alright. I think I get the main point of it. There is pretty much no true class a guitar amp. If there were, it would be the most boring, plain, sterile, uninspiring piece of crap waste of money ever produced.
Not *entirely* - because just as being Class A doesn't guarantee good tone, so it doesn't guarantee bad tone either! It's really a product of the whole circuit not the operating class - but if you want traditional classic tube amp power stage overdrive and compression, making it Class A would not be the simplest way of getting there :). And you could certainly play through a tube hi-fi amp (many of which *are* true Class A) and find that it sounds pretty boring clean and very bad overdriven.

(For what it's worth I do know of one push-pull guitar amp that is probably genuinely Class A - and it sounds wonderful. But the rest of the design is most definitely *not* hi-fi!)

I want to buy a cheap cheap chassis for the 5F1. The ones with all the holes predrilled, that are labeled, and have the mounting stuff for the PCB are about $75. I found other ones for $25, but there's no holes drilled for the OT, knobs, pilot light, tubes, etc. Do you know where I could find a layout to drill all the holes?
To be honest, unless you want to spend hours with a file, or spend quite a lot on the proper-sized punches to do the holes, $75 is not a lot of money to have the work done for you. I know that sounds like a cop-out but it's probably the most economical route to the best result unless you're either very skilled, or plan to do quite a lot of them. If you do want to do it yourself, the layout is not critical as long as all the parts fit.

Also, how would I wire up the pilot light like that of a THD amp? That is to say, have the light's intensity vary by the strength of the input signal.
Not sure how THD do it, or even if the light is a lamp bulb (like the Hotplate) or an LED. There are several ways to do it and places in the circuit it would need to go, depending on how much brightness range you want (ie off to full, half to full, etc). I haven't tried anything like that and it would need a bit of experimentation to give you a better answer...
 
So which amp is probably genuinely class A?

I kinda was already coming to terms with the fact that $75 is somewhat reasonable for all the work that would be entailed.

I figured it was worth a shot asking about the pilot light thing being that I'm going to be doing a fair amount of mods to this thing anyway.

Thank you for all your help in this thread. You've been wonderful!
 

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