Before I leave the Boogie camp, hear me out

[The Magic Hoof]

You've probably seen my other thread, so here goes.

The entire time I've had the Boogie stuff it's been amazingly difficult to get a powerful sound out of it. Tone itself? The Boogie wins on the quality of tone alone. But the power just isn't there. What I'm talking about isn't gain or the tone really, it's just a sense of power, and presence. Something that will move the speakers a bit and blast your head off! And surprisingly, even though a Line 6 amp sounds horrible, it gave me that 'sound' that I've been missing with this Boogie. Not tone, not gain, POWER. I can't explain it any other way. The boogie has just sounded distant and weak and I've tried and tried and tried over the course of months to get a decent recorded sound out of it. Take note that I HAVE done just about everything that I could to engineer the crap out of it. Different mics, mic positioning, dual mics, EQ, delay, reverb, everything, and it still retained its tiny sound.

I tried a boost pedal today and it didn't really help except to give it a bit more gain. That powerful presence is missing. Let me compare this to something. Let's say we have a mix, and then we have a mix that's been mastered (and for the love of god please don't start with the loudness war thing, I think you know what I'm trying to say). The mixed song sounds great, but the mastered version of it has some AMAZING punch and chunkiness to it. That's what I'd compare it to.

Anyway I don't think it's Boogie as a whole, just the particular gear I have. If anything I'd use the Quad preamp to record leads, but definitely, without a doubt, not rhythm. I'm starting to wonder if the 50/50 power amp had anything to do with it, I'm not sure. It's fried now and I think I'm just going to accept my losses here and sell the crap I have to go with another amp (I'll keep the Mesa cab). The 50/50 power amp and the Quad preamp could use new tubes and a general makeover, but at this point I don't think it will be worth my trouble since it may very well be the same in the end. I'm a musician and I want to get my music out there, not sit around being a gear nerd trying to fix stuff. If anyone else has had a problem with a Quad+50/50 I'd like to hear about it.

What do you think?

 

[leadfootdriver]

YOU should sell me the Quad.

 

[The Magic Hoof]

YOU should sell me the Quad.

I may be posting it up soon, keep an eye out. May, is the keyword here. I've got to make a decision and find out if something else would suit me better.

 

[MesaGod666]

Before you leave the Boogie camp...get a Triaxis.

 

[edgecrusher]

Sell the 50/50 and pickup a Recto 2:100. The modern mode along with the extra headroom will give you all the power and presence you need.

 

[jaquetapus]

What cab are you running all this through? What tone are you looking for? [like band/song examples, etc.] What kind of guitar/pickups? Even the 50/50 should give you the punch you're looking for, WITH THE RIGHT TUBES! You're basing your opinion of this gear on a poorly operating example! Get your 50/50 fixed, put some 6L6s in there and report back. If you're not interested in messing around with swapping tubes, maybe tube amplification isn't for you and a solid state modeling type amp would serve you better.

 

[The Magic Hoof]

A Mesa Stiletto 4X12. It's a good cab, no doubt. I didn't even know the power tubes were the wrong ones... or if the bias mod is in there. If there's no bias mod (I don't know how to check for it), I'm going to be P-O'D!!! The guy I bought the power amp from assured me it was all original parts. Why on Earth they'd be in there without that bias mod I don't know, but if that is seriously my problem, then maybe I'll stick with my setup after all. For now, I'm going to pray that putting in new tubes and a new fuse will turn it into what I've always wanted it to be. Here's to hoping.

 

[dmt]

You could try running it through a bass amp. You will be surprised at the results. Also, since you have a stereo power amp I would suggest running it in stereo! That will add an extra dimension. Of course you will need an extra cab for that (or a stereo cab)

Still, give some examples of the sound you are going for.

Also, Changing the tubes on the Quad will make a massive difference. When I got my Quad I spent a week pulling tubes and comparing how it sounded before I settled on a combination that I liked. The new production tubes that were in there sounded flat and dull. Luckily I had a stash of vintage tubes lying around to play with. I would highly recommend that you find some non-new-production tubes to experiment with. Most can be picked up relatively cheap online. You don't need anything super fancy, just something better than the crap they make now.

I'd focus on at least the V11,V21,V13,V23, and V12. (Input 1&2, Lead 1&2, and mixed 1+2) What you put in those spots will have a significant effect on your tone, more so than changing the output tubes on the power amp.

Also, you could try running the Quad from the 'Effects Send' as opposed to the 'Main Out'. This would change a few things, mainly the fact that your 'Output' knobs would cease to do anything, and you would need to set the volume on the power amp. Also, I don't know what your settings are on the Quad. You could be running everything at a low volume and sending a cold signal to the power amp.

I run my Quad through a Simul-Satellite w/ a Hotplate so that I can keep the power tubes happy and a bit hot, and I run a 'hot' signal from the Quad. I like the sound I get from pushing the tubes, just enough to warm them up. If you run everything really low, so that the power amp is barely getting a decent signal its also going to sound flat. Same thing goes for the power amp, if you are running it really low you are not going to get "presence". List your settings! Rack gear is complicated, and the Quad has 2x the knobs of any normal Mesa amp, add to that everything in the power amp and you are looking at a complicated system. You have to look at everything as a whole to understand what is going on.

 

[ryjan]

Try adding and ADA MP-1 to your rack. Amazingly deep, thick gain. Dont get rid of your quad though, try different power amps first. Sounds like a Simul-290 with the modern and deep voicing would cure what ails ya.

 

[The Magic Hoof]

Thanks for the above replies, appreciated. I honestly don't want to do this, but I guess I'll try. I'll buy some new tubes and test it all out, but the first things that will be replaced are the power tubes. Let me clear some things up before I do this though.

Will the Mesa 6L6 GC 420 power tubes work in the 50/50? If so I've got someone with a used set that I'll try for cheap. Also I'm not sure if those other, smaller tubes in the 50/50. They're JJ ECC83S tubes. Would I need some of those too?

I wanted to check for that 'bias mod' thing because as far as I know if mine doesn't have it, that means we've got problems since there are other tubes in there. Where should I check?

The fuse type is 3A/250v. Is the size of it 6x30mm and can I pick these up from just anywhere? Radioshack etc?

I think I'll fool around with my Quad tonight and see if I can figure out anything. I'd be willing to replace all of the tubes in the Quad too, and I've got some extras laying around. I'll be back with another post detailing my Quad...

 

[The Magic Hoof]

Here's my current tubage in the Quad:

V11 - Sovtek 12AX7 LPS
V12 - JJECC83S
V13 - JJECC83S
V14 - Mesa STR12AX7

V21 - No Name (no markings at all)
V22 - Hitachi 7-3
V23 - JJECC83S
V24 - Fender 12AX7W

Quite a mix.

I just took a look and I have 4 extra tubes to play with in the boxes:

Fender 12AX7A (I think?)
Philips(?) 12AX7A
No Brand 12AX7A
Sovtek 12AX7LPS

What should I do with the tubes that I have to work with? Let me know and I'll get on it.


I was shooting for just a general high gain sound. I'm into thrash and death metal, but I'm not completely ridiculous about gain (most amps can push that kind of gain anyway). There was just always a lack of presence, fullness, kick, punch, whatever you want to call it. Let me compare it to this. Let's say you've got a cable plugged into your stereo and it sounds ok. But somehow you discover that the cable isn't pushed in all the way, and as soon as you give it that final nudge, BAM, the presence and fullness is kicked up 10 notches.


By the way, I tried running my Quad into an actual amp head and cab with the same results, and I tried the Send FX out, the Main Outs, and the Recording Outs. That's not such a great setup for testing though.


EDIT: I used the settings in the Quad manual for the searing lead 1, screaming lead 2, insane lead 2, etc. I admit that I only turned up the Quad to 2-3 on the A and B outputs, but I was instructed to do so (also says so in the manual). I ran from the Main Outs to the A and B inputs on the 50/50. And from the 50/50 I ran from two A&B 40hm outputs to the two 4ohm split/bistereo inputs on the my cab. On the 50/50 I sometimes used the presence knobs (matter of taste), but I had the half power switch engaged at all times and turned up both A and B volumes knobs to about 2-3 or wherever my heart desired. Funny, because the 50/50 only decided to blow when I had it on full power for a change.

 

[dmt]

This is what I use in my Quad, basically an assortment of old stock tubes.

V11=Lowery 12AX7A(RCA?)
V12=12AX7 'c' LOGO?
V13=RCA 12AX7
V14=SYLVANIA 12AV7

V21=RCA 12AX7
V22=SYLVANIA 12X7A LONGPLATE
V23=HYTRON 12AT7WA
V24=RCA 12AT7

Get rid of all the JJ's. All of the tubes you listed are Russian, save for the Mesa (Chinese) and Fender (?). Russian tubes are typically "darker" sounding. As I said, invest in some preamp tubes from the 80's (or earlier), NOT new production crap like JJ's or Sovtek or anything New Sensor owned (Tungsol, Mullard, Sovtek, etc). You can find good older tubes that test well for a decent price.

When is the last time you changed the power tubes in the 50/50? Half power will cut out some of the balls of the amp too. When I switch my Simul-Satellite to "Class A" (this dropping it from 85watts to 25watts) it sounds like alot of its thunder is cut out.

Since you tried it through a different power section, I am more inclined that the tubes you have in the Quad are just worn out. Some people like the JJ tubes, and for some amps they are an improvement form the stock Chinese Mesa tubes. I don't think the Quad is one of those preamps. Consider that it originally shipped with Tesla E83CC tubes (now rare and pricey, rated at 10,000 hours of operating time). JJ tubes are known to fail prematurely and often. New Mesa tubes are JJ's, but at least those have been through Mesa's quality control, for what that's worth.

 

[scottcrud]

Maybe you just have a bad Quad or bad 50/50..Ever thought of that? I've got a Studio Preamp and a 2:90 that will cave your chest in, and that's with one 4x12 in mono.

 

[ak47]

Hoof!

Please.... get your gear serviced!

Do you know of a good, locally respected amp tech who is Boogie approved? Ask around because I feel you would be doing your gear a big favour by letting an expert look it over. This would be money far better spent than buying some used power tubes and hoping it fixes things... there may be other issues going on that you are unable to detect yourself and a good tech will put everything in order so you can make an objective decision about whether this gear fills your needs or not. Anyway, a serviced amp with receipts will sell quickly and probably pull a higher price if you decide to go down that road.

I do think it is a great idea to try different preamp tubes in your Quad (I also have a mix that I selected myself) but if the power amp has problems going on I would start there first.

Think of it this way... you say you just want to get your music out and not mess around fixing stuff... I think most people here feel the same way. This is probably also why they choose Mesa amps. But an important point to make is that these amps are like high end sports cars (RS is a 'driver' after all...) and therefore require some simple maintenance from time to time to keep them running at an optimum level. Cleaning pots, tube seats, and occasional tube replacement is just the way things are. If these things are neglected over time of course problems (might) arise.

Some questions for you... What other amps have you tried? Perhaps you will find the 'power' you want in a Rectifier or a maxed out Marshall... do you recall what it was that made you decide to buy the Quad and 50/50 to begin with when you first played through it?

Hope this helps a bit :mrgreen:

 

[The Magic Hoof]

Here's the thing. I live in the middle of nowhere and for years the best thing I had was a music store that carried Fender and other children's instruments, now there's a guitar center but there still isn't that much there. I mention this because I'm literally forced to buy blindly, and always, always through mailorder. The thing that made me want the Quad+50/50 is simply listening to records made with it. Metallica, Dream Theater, you name it, I love it!

I've done lots of research, and it seems that a great amp for me would be a Peavey 6505. I'm absolutely positive it'll suit my needs. But here's the thing. I'm not saying the Quad+50/50 can't satisfy what I've wanted, I'm just saying that it hasn't because something isn't working right on it. I've spent more time fooling with this thing in the last 6 months than I have making music, and I definitely like to write songs more than tinker with gear. This makes me want to say screw it for the time being and go with another amp. I absolutely just do NOT want to do this, but I thiiiiiiiink I might hold onto both the Quad and 50/50, store it away, buy a new amp head and come back to the Mesa stuff in the future when I've got cash.

I don't know of any techs in my area but I'll probably call Mesa and ask. The thing is that I'll probably have to ship it. It'll be $100 to ship there, $100 to ship back, plus I'll have to pay for parts and labor which would cost WAY too much right now, and I don't even know if that'll fix the problem I'm having. So my best choice is to go with another head for the time being I think and then in the future when I've got spare cash from a new job I'm getting, I can maybe see about fixing it up.

I absolutely don't want to do this but I think it's time to stack a bit more debt on my card for a 6505 or something. I've got music to record in my personal studio, so it's begging for a working amp. And thanks for the advice.

 

[dmt]

Actually Mesa will pay the shipping back. I shipped my combo's chassis there to have it checked out a while back. Fairly painless experience.

 

[leadfootdriver]

Where did you buy that Quad? How much do you want for it?