Friend thinks Digitech Death Metal is better than Dual Rec

[YellowJacket]

Or a Digitech Death Metal :lol:

:lol:

 

[seerenity]

Playing devils advocate...

When it comes to death metal, it becomes so saturated that it is tough to tell the difference between a multi thousand dollar boogie and a cheap modeling amp...

While I have no doubt that the Recto does sound better, I doubt I could tell a big difference at first.

 

[YellowJacket]

Playing devils advocate...

When it comes to death metal, it becomes so saturated that it is tough to tell the difference between a multi thousand dollar boogie and a cheap modeling amp...

While I have no doubt that the Recto does sound better, I doubt I could tell a big difference at first.

With pretty much any boogie, the tone of the guitar shines through it, no matter what you do to it. (unless you run it with the volume almost off) People who like REALLY extreme tones complain that Rectos are a bit too tame. That being said, I have whined that if you can't dial in a high gain head, it CAN end up sounding a lot like a glorified stomp box. I was listening to Framus Cobra clips last night and I was blown away at how the one amp seriously sounds like a tube amp wishing it was built with transistors instead. (I like the framus dragon better, but mostly since it wishes it was a Dual Rectifier)

What is it with Metal players and wanted to saturate their sound anyway? When I read up on high gain heads, I feel like I am the only player in the world who turns the gain down so he can hear the tone from his guitar. Even if I did metal, I'd opt for a creamier crunch over a BRUUTALZ sound. In my mind, heaviness should come more from what and how you are playing than from amp settings. Come on, learn more chords than stupid two note power chords.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ozIT5K31U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErYy7xCLr0M&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

cast390 (3 weeks ago) Sorry, sounds like ****,wheres the gain wheres the saturation?Sounds like a shitty? cranked marshall.For the cost of this amp it should be melting paint off the walls.Dude return it a buy a Framus Cobra.

=-/


SpiralDivinity (3 weeks ago) I? might not be good at recording samples.. but I've played a Framus Cobra.. It's just a better dual rectifier. No thanks.

:roll:

 

[Anonymous]

What is it with Metal players and wanted to saturate their sound anyway? When I read up on high gain heads, I feel like I am the only player in the world who turns the gain down so he can hear the tone from his guitar. Even if I did metal, I'd opt for a creamier crunch over a BRUUTALZ sound. In my mind, heaviness should come more from what and how you are playing than from amp settings. Come on, learn more chords than stupid two note power chords.

I think a lot of people get their hands on an expensive amp like a Recto and ignore the tone controls, going straight for volume and gain. I've heard many of them set up to sound like fizz because the people playing just don't get that you need to find settings.

What I'm realizing is that you can't substitute technique for gain or a boost pedal; I'm saying good technique on one amp might be lousy on another. My XTC, for example, practically plays itself. You can have a feather light touch and the notes jump off the fretboard. My Rectifiers, if I'm not really hitting the strings, will begin to sound a little flat. That said, you can't get any other amp to sound like a Recto; that's just how you need to play.

My point is that with the method of really wailing on guitar, you don't actually need the gain up too high. In fact, the only thing extra gain will do in some cases is create mud and fizz, the common complaint of these amps. I'm in complete agreement with you over turning the gain down; not only does it sound creamier to me, but because you're not overloading the gain stages to create flub, as long as you're playing correctly, it will be tighter and heavier.

Thinking out loud now: maybe the reason he likes the Death Metal over the Dual is because he's used to needing only a light touch from the ridiculous amount of tight gain on tap. To us it sounds like fizz - because it is - but maybe tight fizz is better than loose flub of a Dual with bad settings? Tell him to get a Krank!

 

[emperor_black]

Thinking out loud now: maybe the reason he likes the Death Metal over the Dual is because he's used to needing only a light touch from the ridiculous amount of tight gain on tap. To us it sounds like fizz - because it is - but maybe tight fizz is better than loose flub of a Dual with bad settings? Tell him to get a Krank!

I think you got it right there! I've owned the Mark IV for only two - three weeks now. And during the first week, there are many times I've actually wondered if the Hardwire TL-2 that I have is better when it comes to actual playing. Its so much easier to play on the TL-2 into the clean channel of a tube amp. You get the raging rich saturated fizzy distortion and the tube sag because of the tube amp.

But once I go back to the Mark IV, I love the touch sensitivity it has even on the high gain settings. The notes are fat and precise; something the pedals cant do. They always end up thin sounding. As far as the audience is concerned, I dont think they would know the difference between a pedal and a great amp. Why, on the gigantour, I could hardly hear Mustaine's guitar sounds over the shitty PA. In a small club, if they're playing metal, usually they crank up the volume all you can hear is mostly plain noise.

 

[ryjan]

Thinking out loud now: maybe the reason he likes the Death Metal over the Dual is because he's used to needing only a light touch from the ridiculous amount of tight gain on tap. To us it sounds like fizz - because it is - but maybe tight fizz is better than loose flub of a Dual with bad settings? Tell him to get a Krank!

I think you got it right there! I've owned the Mark IV for only two - three weeks now. And during the first week, there are many times I've actually wondered if the Hardwire TL-2 that I have is better when it comes to actual playing. Its so much easier to play on the TL-2 into the clean channel of a tube amp. You get the raging rich saturated fizzy distortion and the tube sag because of the tube amp.

But once I go back to the Mark IV, I love the touch sensitivity it has even on the high gain settings. The notes are fat and precise; something the pedals cant do. They always end up thin sounding. As far as the audience is concerned, I dont think they would know the difference between a pedal and a great amp. Why, on the gigantour, I could hardly hear Mustaine's guitar sounds over the sh!t PA. In a small club, if they're playing metal, usually they crank up the volume all you can hear is mostly plain noise.

Yeah but I'd know. I seem to play cleaner on my Mark IV vs any ss modeler because I think I'm trying harder on my tube amp. The feel and feedback from a Mesa is so much more, for lack of a better word, personal than transistors. The amp becomes one with your mood and personality whereas my technique and mood dont come into play with the digitech crap.

 

[YellowJacket]

I think a lot of people get their hands on an expensive amp like a Recto and ignore the tone controls, going straight for volume and gain. I've heard many of them set up to sound like fizz because the people playing just don't get that you need to find settings.

What I'm realizing is that you can't substitute technique for gain or a boost pedal; I'm saying good technique on one amp might be lousy on another. My XTC, for example, practically plays itself. You can have a feather light touch and the notes jump off the fretboard. My Rectifiers, if I'm not really hitting the strings, will begin to sound a little flat. That said, you can't get any other amp to sound like a Recto; that's just how you need to play.

My point is that with the method of really wailing on guitar, you don't actually need the gain up too high. In fact, the only thing extra gain will do in some cases is create mud and fizz, the common complaint of these amps. I'm in complete agreement with you over turning the gain down; not only does it sound creamier to me, but because you're not overloading the gain stages to create flub, as long as you're playing correctly, it will be tighter and heavier.

Thinking out loud now: maybe the reason he likes the Death Metal over the Dual is because he's used to needing only a light touch from the ridiculous amount of tight gain on tap. To us it sounds like fizz - because it is - but maybe tight fizz is better than loose flub of a Dual with bad settings? Tell him to get a Krank!

I think the thing I like the most about the Recto is how much your playing technique influences the tone. I am also a classically trained Pianist and Cellist and in my experience, you have to really dig in on these instruments to get a phat sound. Especially with cello, there are many subtle nuances of colour based on which string is being played, bow speed, bow pressure, distance of bow from the bridge, vibrato, etc. The challenge is to bring all these factors to bear while playing, so that you can communicate something to your audience. While no one else cares or notices these details, they still 'feel' them in the performance.

The same goes with guitar. There are so many colours to be had with a great axe and tube amp that it seems like an incredible loss to boost the hell out of it, or run a stompbox instead.
When people are talking about the amount of gain with a pedal, a solid state head, or Line 6 POD on Insane, they really are communicating a lack of dynamic range. I have played on crappy pianos and Cellos, and one dynamic level is really only possible. You have to struggle to get a good sound at all. Crappy guitar amplification is a lot like this, except for one difference. For whatever reason, crappy amps do not highlight crappy technique, they hide it.
So naturally a Dual doesn't 'saturate' for a player like this. The distortion tone is not crunchy and even, and random notes die out while soloing. This isn't in the amp, though. There aren't little gremlins in there sucking up tone. What is happening is that these players have done the equivalent of learned how to play piano on a keyboard with weighted keys. The tone is the same, no matter how you play, and the notes are easy to push down. When you jump directly to a regulated $70,000 concert grand, the tone is bad, the scales sound uneven, and the level between hands is unbalanced. It just doesn't work the same. Newsflash, it is NOT the piano!

Since most beginners do not want to commit upwards of $6,000 for good gear, they are stuck with the flat dynamic, forgiving response, and poor tone of solid state gear. Of course, they could bite the bullet and practice clean, but that is too much work, so they play with gain and develop bad habits. So, when Johnny guitarist buys his first tube amp, he dumps the gain, EQs it like a solid state amp, and wonders why it doesn't sound the same. His buddy, who has better gear, turns the gain down, dials in a decent tone, and the amp comes to life. Then Johnny plays, and it sucks. He's disappointed and runs his stomp box with the amp instead. It sounds better to him, because it is what he is used to.

I think you got it right there! I've owned the Mark IV for only two - three weeks now. And during the first week, there are many times I've actually wondered if the Hardwire TL-2 that I have is better when it comes to actual playing. Its so much easier to play on the TL-2 into the clean channel of a tube amp. You get the raging rich saturated fizzy distortion and the tube sag because of the tube amp.

But once I go back to the Mark IV, I love the touch sensitivity it has even on the high gain settings. The notes are fat and precise; something the pedals cant do. They always end up thin sounding. As far as the audience is concerned, I dont think they would know the difference between a pedal and a great amp. Why, on the gigantour, I could hardly hear Mustaine's guitar sounds over the sh!t PA. In a small club, if they're playing metal, usually they crank up the volume all you can hear is mostly plain noise.

Yup, backing off the gain, EQing the amp correctly, and relying on good playing technique are really the key to good tone and a heavy sound. There was a thread with a video where John Petrucci explains how to chug like he does. He even says to back off on the gain and rely on a slower and heavier pick attack to get that weight in the sound.

I remember having so many formative experiences as a guitarist. The first was when I just got my dual, the more I played it the more I turned down the gain and played harder into the strings.
I mean I have been playing in bands since the day I got my first guitar, but still, I became more and more aware of how guitar tones sit in a band situation as opposed to how they sound in the bedroom. I find when we play alone, we try to compensate for the lack of drums and bass. As much as we like to think we're BROOTALZ, almost all intensity is actually contributed by first the drums, and then the bass. If the kick and the bass line up with chugs, they sound SOO much more monstrous. An example of this is the stupid pop punk band Sum 41. They were playing Metallica covers at a concert for fun and they didn't all of the sudden change gear. They just changed style and it automatically sounded WAY heavier. Funny how that works!

That is my next comment. Turn down the bass!! Bass is for bass guitar. To get a great tone, you really have the conglomerate sound of the guitar combined with the bass so having a super heavy low end can really detract from this. I remember playing live and asking my friend about my tone. His first comment was "Turn down the bass, man. Seriously". He was right. Having a lot less low end clears up the mud like crazy.
While we favour a scooped sound in the bedroom, we should really crank the mids on the stage. Basically, cymbals hop all over the highs and the bass guitar stomps on the lows so the midrange is all that is really left for us. I remember hearing one two guitar band play at a local show we did. The one guy was running a marshall but you couldn't even hear him because of the uberscoop he had going. To top it off, he was running against a Recto with the mids cranked. After they finished a song, I walked over, cranked his mids, and told him to play. He was now in the mix and sounding great. Much happier!!

Yeah but I'd know. I seem to play cleaner on my Mark IV vs any ss modeler because I think I'm trying harder on my tube amp. The feel and feedback from a Mesa is so much more, for lack of a better word, personal than transistors. The amp becomes one with your mood and personality whereas my technique and mood dont come into play with the digitech crap.

Yup, I heard enough guys live where you can't hear anything. My brother and I became more and more specific with our tone settings and arrangements live. We'd turn the gain down even more because we realized that the collective guitar chug was a sum total of both our amps, which sound infinitely thicker and more detailed together than one at a time. The idea is not to compete with each other, but to co-operate for the greater good.
When he was shopping for his guitar, our guitar technician recommended he invest in a fender type model to complement the sound of my Les Paul. He said it is way easier to mix the two sounds and you can really tell who is playing what, an added benefit. One of these days I'll have to get a strat so when I play with another guitar, I have whatever I need to work with what the other guy is doing.


**********

Just one other thought. What do you guys think about chasing studio tones? I have been shocked what some bands sound like live vs in the studio. For instance, Greenday's tone live is absolutely TERRIBLE but it sounds awesome on the album Dookie. I also love SOD's studio tone--it is so phat--but ****, it was terrible live. =-/ Sum 41, however, sounds virtually the same in both situations.
I have been haunted since this summer by the absolutely awesome tone I got with a TSL 100 minus two tubes going through my Standard Rectocab. I always hated Marshalls but I guess it was the 1960a cabs I didn't like because ****, that sounded GREAT! I was curious so I have listened to a bunch of Youtube tone clips to try to find what it is I like, but honestly, they all sound like ***. The Marshall settings are always scooped to all hell, frightfully bright, and buzzy to high heaven. The Mesas are no better. In all my internet wanderings, it was impossible to find what I really like about both amps in my own experience. Is dialing in guitar tone like expecting people to custom design wedding rings? Is it THAT hard to make any equipment sound decent?

 

[Anonymous]

Just one other thought. What do you guys think about chasing studio tones? I have been shocked what some bands sound like live vs in the studio. For instance, Greenday's tone live is absolutely TERRIBLE but it sounds awesome on the album Dookie. I also love SOD's studio tone--it is so phat--but ****, it was terrible live. =-/ Sum 41, however, sounds virtually the same in both situations.
I have been haunted since this summer by the absolutely awesome tone I got with a TSL 100 minus two tubes going through my Standard Rectocab. I always hated Marshalls but I guess it was the 1960a cabs I didn't like because ****, that sounded GREAT! I was curious so I have listened to a bunch of Youtube tone clips to try to find what it is I like, but honestly, they all sound like ***. The Marshall settings are always scooped to all hell, frightfully bright, and buzzy to high heaven. The Mesas are no better. In all my internet wanderings, it was impossible to find what I really like about both amps in my own experience. Is dialing in guitar tone like expecting people to custom design wedding rings? Is it THAT hard to make any equipment sound decent?

I hate those 1960a cabs. The design itself is alright - though I'd take a Recto 4x12 any day over them - but the G12T-75s make for a thin, flat tone. I think the only reason they're popular is because they were the first set of speakers Marshall endorsed for being powerful enough to handle their 100w heads without needing a full stack.

I love tone chasing. A lot of people don't like it because it "wastes time", but as someone getting into audio production, I think it's very important to understand what type of setup is needed for which sounds. So tone chasing is important to me.

 

[daveycrocketofmetal]

Thats funny Whats the point in paying hundreds of dollars for a tube amp and then put a distortion pedal in front of it? A boost or overdrive yeah, sometimes, but arent you paying for a gain sound that you like?

 

[212Mavguy]

Am guessing that the Marshall is a Valvestate model...I have a friend who is a full time amp tech, he HATES working on Valvestates. I have another friend that plays through a Valvestate, a common problem I have seen happen to him repeatedly is that the sound man hears all that fizz texture and turns down his amp too much to be heard, when he goes for the solos, his notes can't be easily distinguished, but you can sorta hear the wasp in the jam jar texture. :roll: Also, they are not all that reliable compared to most Mesa amps.

 

[boogieslayer]

as far as the digitech goes ive heard it before and its crapola , the dude really needs to get his ears and head checked if he thinks its better than a rec..
people should be drawn and quartered for using the word valvestate in the same sentence as the Mighty Mesa :mrgreen:

don't get me wrong i love a good TUBE marshall....